Sasquatch Coffee

2006’s Top Ten White & Black Squirrels’ Hot Spots

Posted by: Loren Coleman on November 30th, 2006

Here are two new fun lists for 2006. They represent my top ten choices (each) of white and black squirrels’ hot spots tied to their sightings and appearances. White squirrels are infrequently albino (with pink eyes) and more often near-albinos (with dark eyes). The more numerous melanistic and near-melanistic (often looking brown) squirrels are celebrated as black squirrels. The guidelines and criteria for these sites’ rankings on my lists are via a complex and comprehensive formula based on the significance of the population, media attention they are demanding, local interest levels, and my personal biases.

White Squirrel

One of Olney’s Finest.

2006′s Top Ten White Squirrel Locations

1. Portland, Maine. This city has been assisted the #12 spot in Frommer’s new list of the top world destinations in 2007, as I mentioned yesterday. Now it turns out, the city has a new attraction, recent sightings of one lone white squirrel in its Longfellow Woods. It has been photographed but that image is not online yet. Melanie Creamer’s Portland Press Herald story of November 29, on page B-5, never made it to the newspaper’s website either. Nevertheless, it is a breaking story, discussed around town. Are there more? Will the Longfellow Woods be full of white squirrels in a decade? Will laws to protect Portland’s lone white squirrel be passed soon. This has to be the number one pick, because the sighting is almost being discussed like its a miracle appearance of a white buffalo. Stay tuned.

2. Olney, Illinois. Although at one time, there were 1000 white squirrels here, today the number is around 200. The town is well-known, since 1902, for its white squirrel population. They are protected in the town, which has become a major tourist attraction based largely on the fact they have called the city, “Home of the White Squirrels.”

3. Marionville, Missouri. Also publicized as “Home of the White Squirrels.” The town claims to possess the largest, oldest colony of white squirrels in the world, around 300 to 600, here since at least 1854. “The squirrels in Olney were kidnapped from Marionville,” the town’s literature says.

4. Exeter, Ontario. The town has a sizable population of white squirrels. Lucky lottery coins have been produced linked to these white squirrels, as has several types of souvenirs. There is an annual White Squirrel Festival here.

5. Brevard, North Carolina. Yet another “Home of the White Squirrels.” Brevard College’s “White Squirrel Research Institute” has charted the geographic distribution of their famed near-albino residents. Brevard’s white squirrels are legally protected. The town holds a White Squirrel Festival, around Memorial Day Weekend.

6. Kenton, Tennessee. About 200 white squirrels exist here. But are they growing rarer here? The town no longer celebrates it’s white squirrel population in any large fashion.

7. Oberlin College, Ohio. There are a few albino squirrels roaming College and Tappan Square.

8. Northern Keys, Florida. Another white squirrel colony.

9. Charlotte, North Carolina. Yet another one.

10. University of Texas at Austin. Founded in April, 2001, by Dustin Ballard at the University of Texas at Austin, the Albino Squirrel Preservation Society (ASPS) exists as an international collegiate organization dedicated to “fostering compassion and goodwill” toward albino squirrels, first seen in Austin. About 700 ASPS members are now in chapters formed at the University of North Texas, the University of Pennsylvania, the University of Western Ontario, Cambridge University, Texas A&M University, Illinois State University, the Juilliard School of Music, and Concord High School in Concord, California, where all supposedly have white squirrels on their campuses. Honorable mention must go to the University of Louisville, too, which reportedly has had white squirrels since the 1930s.

I would assume that these “newer” locations are being set up by the specific “seeding” of campuses with one or two white squirrels. However, not all of these experiments end in established populations, if the following is typical:

Albino Squirrel

The Once And Future University of North Texas White Squirrel.

University of North Texas, Texas. A single albino squirrel here representing academic fortune was “discovered” in 2002. Therefore, a chapter of the Albino Squirrel Preservation Society was formed on behalf of the squirrel. (Or was the chapter formed first, and then the white squirrel brought here?) Tragically, on the morning of August 21, 2006, the albino squirrel was the prey of a hawk and was pronounced dead.

Black Squirrel

One of Washington State’s Black Squirrels, perhaps a former Canadian?

2006′s Top Ten Black Squirrel Locations

1. National Zoo, Washington, D. C. I’ve personally seen these black squirrels on my zoological field visits here for over 30 years. The black squirrels are well-fed by the zoo visitors waiting to see the giant pandas, and, needless to say, naturally protected in these surroundings.

2. Marysville, Kansas. With some justification, this is the “Home of the Black Squirrels.” It has named the black squirrel its official mascot, complete with an annual “Black Squirrel Celebration” and its own song. The black squirrels here are protected by local laws. (Footnote: Hobbs, New Mexico. The town transplanted some black squirrels from Marysville, Kansas, in 1973. However, they have been all killed in recent years by the fox squirrels the town imported from Texas.)

3. Council Bluffs, Iowa. The town has been the home of black squirrels since at least the 1840s.

4. London, Ontario. There is a sizable native population of black squirrels here, that are the source of Kent State’s now successful colony.

Black Squirrel

5. Kent State University, Kent, Ohio. The black squirrel is the unofficial mascot of the school, with a black squirrel road race and an annual “Black Squirrel Festival,” since 1981. All the black squirrels originated in 1961 from ten original black squirrels that were transported to the campus from London, Canada, by Larry Woodell, superintendent of grounds, and M. W. Staples, a retired executive of the Davey Tree Expert Company. (Mount Union College, about an hour away from Kent State, is also home to a large population of black squirrels.)

6. Princeton, New Jersey. The famed university town has a population of melanistic Eastern gray squirrels.

7. Albion College, Michigan. The black squirrels here have become a defining symbols of the college. Michigan State University has some sightings too.

8. University of Maryland, College Park, Maryland. Black squirrel sightings have been reported from this location.

9. University of British Columbia, Vancouver, British Columbia. The black squirrels here reached urban legend status here, as they are said to be extremely large, compared to a plague, and felt to be like rats around campus. Black squirrels were introduced to the Stanley Park Peninsula in Vancouver, British Columbia, prior to 1914 and have now spread from Vancouver, into the North Shore and the Fraser Valley area surrounding the city. Reportedly, as well, these squirrels have migrated from Vancouver into Whatcom County, in northwest Washington State.

10. Bronx Zoo and Manhattan’s Central Park and Peter Cooper Village, New York City. A thriving population of black squirrels are found in these Big Apple sites.

[Non-America note: Black squirrels today are also seen in the towns of Letchworth Garden City and the Chiltern Hills area of Baldock in Hertfordshire, England, and the villages of Girton, Madingley and Oakington near Cambridge, United Kingdom.]

Squirrel Sightings Are Not Easy

A note about searching for these squirrels: Avoid harassing the wildlife and don’t get too frustrated looking for white or black squirrels. Yes, it may seem like a no-brainer to observe a squirrel, but it does not come easily when you are narrowing your focus.

A rather well-known great white squirrel hunter named Craig S. Thom has traveled throughout North America photographing his prey (his pic of one pair, a black one and a white one together, is outstanding – see the link below).

Your luck may be no better than Thom’s, for example, where he mentions on his website that he only saw one white squirrel in Olney, Illinois, and after searching and searching, finally came upon only one pair in Kenton, Tennessee.

If this guy can barely find these animals to photograph their images, even though they live in large, well-publicized, open populations, why should we be surprised Bigfoot are not captured on film more often?

Why is this of interest to a cryptozoologist? I talk about that in a separate blog today, here.

About Loren Coleman
Loren Coleman is one of the world’s leading cryptozoologists, some say “the” leading. Certainly, he is acknowledged as the current living American researcher and writer who has most popularized cryptozoology in the late 20th and early 21st centuries. Starting his fieldwork and investigations in 1960, after traveling and trekking extensively in pursuit of cryptozoological mysteries, Coleman began writing to share his experiences in 1969. An honorary member of Ivan T. Sanderson’s Society for the Investigation of the Unexplained in the 1970s, Coleman has been bestowed with similar honorary memberships of the North Idaho College Cryptozoology Club in 1983, and in subsequent years, that of the British Columbia Scientific Cryptozoology Club, CryptoSafari International, and other international organizations. He was also a Life Member and Benefactor of the International Society of Cryptozoology (now-defunct). Loren Coleman’s daily blog, as a member of the Cryptomundo Team, served as an ongoing avenue of communication for the ever-growing body of cryptozoo news from 2005 through 2013.


40 Responses to “2006’s Top Ten White & Black Squirrels’ Hot Spots”

  1. PhotoExpert responds:

    Loren–Great post! I had recently heard of rumors of a small black squirrel population in a little local public park. The park is Mariner Point Park in Joppatowne, Maryland. I am a professional photographer and the model had suggested that location for the shoot since it was close to where she lived. I asked her about the “supposed” black squirrels there. She confirmed that she had seen them too.

    To make a long story short, during our walk to a good location for shooting modeling shots, I encountered no less than 6 black squirrels during a ten minute walk. Having camera in hand, getting a photograph was no problem.

    So am I luckier than Thom? Surely the population of black squirrels in this little park gave me about one tenth the probability of getting a photograph of one that Thom had. After all, he was visiting heavily populated white squirrel areas. Not to mention, that this was my first time even hearing of or attempting to get a photograph of a black squirrel in Maryland.

    That made me think. How could I do it so easily if it is so difficult to accomplish?

    And therein I believe lies the answer to the question you pose. You wrote:

    “If this guy can barely find these animals to photograph their images, even though they live in large, well-publicized, open populations, why should we be surprised Bigfoot are not captured on film more often?”

    I believe the answer is in the photographer’s approach, skill level, anticipation of making contact, planning ahead, and methodology in approaching the subject.

    As with the recent submission of the skunk ape photo by a photographer here, I had noted that she had no telephoto lens. She was doing scenic shots. But since she was in skunk ape area, why not have an additional camera already mounted with a telephoto lens, just in case?

    I was there to take modeling shots, but I had at the ready a long telephoto zoom lens just in case and had my settings on the camera preset in case of an encounter with a black squirrel. I had never seen one before in person and due to the limited size of the park, the black squirrel population had to be small as compared to other areas in the country. But I was prepared just in case of a chance encounter in that 10 minute period.

    I told the model, makeup artist and hair stylist to walk slowly and look for movement and limit noise as much as they could–no talking. Within three minutes of the walk to the location, I encountered a black squirrel. Having been prepared with flash and preset camera at the ready, it was just a matter of taking the shot. Surprise! Click! Done!

    If you read any of the posts made by photographers who are actually going after big foot photographs or know they might encounter a situation where a sasquatch photo opportunity may present itself, one of the following always occurs:

    Not expecting to get a shot of a big foot although that is what they are hoping to do in the first place.

    Wrong camera settings almost every time!

    Wrong lens almost each and every time.

    And rarely do we see the photographer reacting or approaching the subject in a manner to get the best photograph possible.

    Some of these photographers are so called professionals in the field! LOL

    It just unfathomable to me that they could not get a decent shot.

    If you take my analogy in getting a black squirrel photo, it is very similar to the photographer that submitted the skunk ape photo although my secondary priority was the black squirrel. And in most of the posts or articles I read of blobsquatches, the photographers are explicitly going after a photograph of a big foot type creature. How can they not get a great photograph when the encounter takes place?

    As a professional photographer, I have analyzed this scenario and came to the following conclusions:

    The photographer’s approach.

    The skill level of the photographer. Lack of real anticipation of making contact.

    Poor planning.

    Poor or limited methodology in approaching the subject.

    So there is my answer to your question. Maybe I should try for a Sasquatch photo next time. LOL At least I will have the right tools at my ready and the correct methodology in getting the photo. Apparently, this is what all the other so called “photographers” lacked.

    Seems pretty simple! GREAT POST Loren!!! I liked both the subject matter and the analogy you have made here!

  2. LSU_Crypto responds:

    I had no idea black or white squirrels were rare. For years an albino squirrel lived in the quad at LSU. Tradition was you wouldn’t meet your true love until you saw the thing.

    I also encountered black squirrels when I lived in DC. I assumed them to be some northern species. I saw them frequently.

  3. BugMO responds:

    I’ve lived in Missouri all my life and I never knew we had a population of white squirrels. I’ve heard about the white squirrel colony in Illinois, but not the one in Missouri.

    Great post Loren keep up the great work!

  4. Raptorial responds:

    LSU_Crypto, it’s good to hear about another Louisianian here. My father once caught a black squirrel.

  5. Ken responds:

    We have a huge population of Melanistic squirrels (for the size of the park) at William Cann park in Union City, CA. The park is only about 1.5 acres with about 20 black squirrels in the area. I have also heard of but not seen a white one.

    The black ones seem to be getting hit by cars a lot more often than the standard colored ones do. I don’t know if this is because they are harder to see at night or if the black ones are just more adventurous/dumber.

    The other side of the bay, around Stanford University is also crawling with Black Squirrels.

  6. busterggi responds:

    Can’t say I’ve ever seen a live white squirrel but the local museum had a stuffed one years ago.

    On the other hand there was (I haven’t been there lately) a population of black squirrels off Rte. 9 exit 17 along the Middletown – Durham town line a few years back.

    I’ve always been fond of rodents.

  7. Savage30L responds:

    In some coastal areas of South Carolina, in stands on longleaf pine, one can find fox squirrels marked like Siamese cats. They have cream-colored bodies, but black ears, feet, and tails. If you really have a yen to photograph squirrels, I suggest that you try to photograph one of these, as they are gorgeous animals, and noticeably larger than gray squirrels. I’ve seen many of these in the Carolina Sandhills National Wildlife Refuge, and that would be a good place to start looking.

  8. Mnynames responds:

    So why are there so many black squirrels associated with colleges and universities? Is there any evidence that students are actively spreading them?

  9. Loren Coleman responds:

    Mynames…yes, re-read the part of the post regarding the white squirrels. Something similar appears to be happening with black squirrels too, although, in general there are many, many more black squirrels than white squirrels.

  10. drypondscout responds:

    There are some large fox squirrels that are also marked like siamese cats on 3 golf courses on Pawleys Island SC. Next time I’ll take a camera.

  11. shockwave responds:

    Black squirrels are the norm in PORT HURON MI. Go anywhere and it is all you will ever see. I always thought it was funny when people took pictures of them until I moved away.

  12. dre222 responds:

    I’m not sure if the black squirrels from Kent, OH migrate 40 miles or not, but there are at least a couple dozen running around Orrville, OH. Every squirrel I’ve seen there in the last year has been black.

  13. Nightwing responds:

    Since when do black squirrels rate as crypto-anything?

    They are nothing more then the dark (melanistic) phase of the common grey squirrel, and are common nationwide wherever greys are found.

    I’d guess that 30-40 percent of grey squirrels in Michigan are black phase, and they are certainly not limited to a handful of cities.

    I see them constantly when out in the woods, in many places they outnumber the “common” grey phase.

    Hard to believe that some towns claim to be the “home” of the black squirrel. That’s a bit like saying you are the “home” of the white tailed deer!

  14. dewhurst responds:

    For any one in England wishing to play this game there are (well certainly used to be) a colony of black Squirrels living in the grounds of Woburn Abbey.

  15. deadpossum responds:

    A small number of white squirrels live (with a lot of grays) on the University of Louisville’s Belknap Campus in Louisville, Kentucky. I’m not sure if they are albino.

  16. raisinsofwrath responds:

    There is quite a population of black squirrels in my old hunting grounds of McKean County in NW PA. I went back there for a year before I relocated to Chicagoland and got a chance to hunt the small game season. While hunting Turkey I spotted many black sqirrels. I’m sure they are still aplenty in the area 3 years later.

  17. dhricenak responds:

    You can add Dingmans Ferry, in Pike County, Pennsylvania to the black squirrel list. When I lived there I used to see them in my backyard and in the community where I worked security. I even published an article about them in our local monthly newspaper.

  18. Toirtis responds:

    I did not know that black-phase grey squirrels were unusual in the USA. Here in Canada, they are pretty much all we have (our native red squirrels are grey and far less numerous). In fact, there are probably about 35-40 black squirrels that live on my block (Calgary, Alberta). As suggested in the UBC bit, they are a plague (and an invasive species here). The little terrors dig in my garden and planters. I have, however, never sighted a leusistic specimen here.

  19. Loren Coleman responds:

    Okay, something is becoming extremely obvious with these comments and what I initially found in just comparing the popular research on “white” and “black” squirrel populations.

    Black squirrels are more widespread that most people have considered, there appears to be an evolutionary shift going on in which it is advantageous to be a black squirrel (if you are a squirrel), and there probably is an established “black color” phrase that has developed, is recognized, or certainly should be verified within the gray squirrel species.

    On the other hand, white (esp. pure albino) squirrels are relatively scare, seem to be mostly spread by human (esp. college student) intervention, and may not be the best color for survival among squirrels.

    Having a sighting of a white squirrel is a much rarer event than seeing a black squirrel, but easier than seeing a Bigfoot.

    Taking a photograph of a black squirrel is no challenge; obtaining your own first-person photo of a white squirrel is more difficult.

  20. Allen Hazen responds:

    Glad to hear that black squirrels are common in Canada: I first saw them in Toronto; in the late 1960s they seemed to outnumber greys in whatever downtown park I visited.

    As for New York City (where grey is more common): I think I have seen semi-melanistic (brown) in Riverside Park (West Side of Manhattan, several blocks from Central Park where you say black are common). On visits to New York in 2004 and 2005 (but not in 2006) I saw a black squirrel on the grounds of the (Anglican) Cathedral of St. John the Divine. This is just across the street from Morningside Park, which is separated from Central Park on the other side by two blocks of city. There’s room for some interesting amateur scientist natural history here: to what degree are different city parks isolated, as regards squirrel gene pools, by intervening city?

    Princeton, New Jersey, folklore was that one color of squirrel was “town” and the other “gown”: I don’t know if there is (or once was) anything to this; I have seen both grey and black on the University Campus.

  21. PLMerite responds:

    Funny or weird – I was reading this thread last night and lo! and behold on the way home this morning a black squirrel crossed the road in front of me in Lanham Maryland, which is not far from College Park.

    No, I didn’t have my camera with me.

  22. jchip responds:

    Black squirrels are the norm in the Grosse Pointes, St. Clair Shores, and parts of Detroit! When I visit there, it is unusual to see a normal grey squirrel. In the part of Illinois where I live, (near St. Louis) we used to have sizable populations of red squirrels. Now you never see red squirrels, and grey squirrels predominate.

  23. Rillo777 responds:

    Man am I sorry I missed this and am writing so late. There is a small population of black squirrels in Alexandria, Indiana and in Elwood north of there. I’ve seen them many times and they hang around the parks and even people’s yards. I was amazed when I first saw them having grown up in southern Indiana. But they are here and doing very well.

  24. imaturtlefan responds:

    Beavercreek, OH has quite a few of the white squirrels. I have a photograph I took earlier this year of 2 together in my back yard.

  25. the2ndseal responds:

    I live in Louisiana, and while I haven’t been there in a while, I remember from when I was younger a large number of black squirrels living in a town called Donaldsonville. Just thought I would share that.

  26. MajorTom responds:

    Thanks for the lead on black and white squirrels; very helpful. Gilchrist County Florida is home to a number of black squirrel. For those who are interested, I often see these guys driving along the forested portions of U.S. Highway 129. Good Luck

  27. ZooPhotoGirl responds:

    I have heard about black & white squirrels, before. However I didn’t know there were so many different populations of them spread all over the place.

    I just wanted to add my story.

    My fiancee & I were walking our dog through the park where we live in Boston. When out in front of us there was a black squirrel! It was so neat seeing one. Also, my father works in Boston, and he saw a black squirrel a few days later. We’re not sure if it was the same one but, it was near where we live.

    So now you know there have been black squirrel sightings in the South End, of Boston Mass.

  28. sansimeongirl responds:

    Excuse me, these are rare? I commonly see both white and black squirrels running around in my Saint Paul, Minnesota neighborhood. They barely merit a second glance anymore, they are so common.

  29. ilexoak responds:

    Yes, I lived in St. Paul for 6 years and white squirrels were everywhere especially near Lake Calhoun? on the Minneapolis side. Never saw a black one there.

    There are plenty of fox Squirrels on the eastern shore of Maryland, though. They’re big fellas with cool fancy ear tufts and their patches of red!

    Wayne

  30. jstar responds:

    I used to live in London, ON (Black squirrels – #4). Its interesting that Exeter, ON (White squirrels – #4) is only about a 30-40 min walk from there. You might think the populations would breed each other out.

  31. jdejon1 responds:

    I recently raised a baby white squirrel myself.

    Here is his photo album if you want to see any pictures of him. His name is Wiki, he’s cute as heck.

    He’s off at a wild-life rehab center in Covington, LA now where he can live with the other squirrels. But for the first two months of his life, I was his father.

    He is in fact an albino squirrel.

  32. dmirro responds:

    Thank you for the list–it validates what I saw last week, up here in the borderlands between the USA and Canada. I was driving through Sumas when I saw a black squirrel on someone’s front lawn. Now that I know they are here, I’ll try to get a photo to send in, preferably of one standing in front of a “Welcome to Sumas” sign.

    So now I have yet another critter to keep an eye out for, in addition to the Bald Eagles, Gyrfalcons and Trumpeter Swans…oh yes, and Sasquatch…I love Whatcom County!

  33. PLeary responds:

    Black squirrels are considered a cryptid?

    Dear Loren,

    Upon my first lengthy purview of your great and fascinating Web site, I came across the White and Black squirrel top 10 article. I admit I am shocked that the black squirrel is a cryptid.

    In 2002, my wife, toddler daughter and I traded our Florida home for 3 months with a couple from Vancouver, BC, specifically in a small community on the enclave of Horseshow Bay. The ONLY squirrels — and they were plentiful — we ever saw there were jet black. Being a native East Coaster I was only familiar with the bold grey squirrels. I had never seen a black squirrel, nor had my wife. These were striking and a bit furrier than their eastern cousins (though it was winter). The guys also seemed a tad more reticent than the grey squirrels. We assumed these black squirrels were de rigour all over Vancouver as they were ever present in the many forests and parks we visited over the three months.

    Interestingly, now I live in Mountain View, CA (roughly between San Francisco and San Jose) and just Wednesday I saw my first U.S. black squirrel in a tree behind my office. My first thought was pleasant surprise since I regard the blacks as novel and interesting (at least compared to the grey squirrels I grew up with). If you are interested in a photo, I am sure I can capture one on camera since the little habitat behind my office is just a patch of trees squeezed between light industrial/warehousing buildings and that squirrel may call that home.

  34. Loren Coleman responds:

    No, of course, not.

    Black and white squirrels are not cryptids.

    This entire thread began as an exercise in people identifying and seeing if they could photograph a known and easy-to-identify population of animals that remain elusive to many.

    In others, skeptics say that with so many cellphone cameras the number of Bigfoot photos should be increasing. But the challenge was, hey, how easy is it to even find and photograph b & w squirrels.

    Thus the thread developed about where they are and how easy are they to see.

  35. PNWJaeger responds:

    I reside in Bellingham Washington (Whatcom County) & we seem to be over run by black squirrels. They first really started showing up about 7 or 8 years ago. Now it seems like a common occurrence.
    I see them almost daily around the house (much to my collie’s chagrin).
    One that I’ve seen only once or twice was unusual however in that the tip of its tail was white, resembling a fox’s tail. Is this common, or perhaps some sort of genetic throwback to its white counterpart?
    I’ve never seen white squirrels around here by the way.

  36. josephp responds:

    There was a single white squirrel on the East Carolina campus in Greenville, NC, I saw it numerous times near the library (incidentally, one of the most crowded flyways for a large predator, not that it would stop one though)

  37. babesbarn responds:

    I stopped short in my tracks when I saw a “white squirrel” yesterday in Beachwood NJ. I could not believe my eyes. Then I recalled that about fifteen years ago in that same spot I saw a white squirrel too and looked it up at the local library. I wonder how long they live and if this is a relative of the first one.

    He was so pure white and a “jolly” spotting. I thought him to be good luck for me.

  38. sdiver68 responds:

    My grandparents and parent live in Olney, Illinois. As such, I’ve seen lots of white squirrels.

    However, at the Tradition Club on Pawleys Island, SC we saw all kinds of multi-colored squirrels a couple of days ago. I forgot to ever take any photos as we were there for the golf. These were larger squirrels with many different varieties of markings from salt-pepper to grey to brown to jet black to white. One animal might have 3-4 different unique patches. If you want photos it would be easy…these squirrels were not afraid to stand just a few feet from club-wielding humans and there are lots of them to be found…at least in mid-April.

    At Oyster Bay Golf Club in Sunset Beach, NC we saw a few jet black squirrel with snow white nose and ear tips only. I snapped a picture on my cell phone which I will attempt to download and blow-up.

  39. fhelmjr responds:

    Is a black squirrel with a solid white tail rare?

  40. lisavic responds:

    I saw a solid black squirrel today in Northeastern Washington State at Deer Lake. I had never seen one before in this area.



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