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Carter Farm Update

Posted by: Loren Coleman on June 24th, 2009

See “Comments” section. A Carter Farm supporter makes a ridiculous and distracting claim about the “Neighbor” emails, saying they are faked.

In October 2006, Cryptomundo posted about the Carter Farm in Tennessee, the site of supposedly frequent contacts between “Bigfoot-type” creatures and members of or relatives of the “Carter family.”

Previously investigated with negative findings by my brother Jerry D. Coleman, who lives in Tennessee, the reaction, as expected, was not pleasant from friends of the Carters. Mary Green even called for us, at one point, to pull down Will Duncan’s photo that supported the Carter’s point-of-view. Go figure.

Carter Family Drawing

Illustrating an alleged encounter: Janice meeting Fox in house’s basement, April 2002. Click to make the Bigfoot image even bigger.

Jerry D. Coleman’s "A Carter Farm Investigation gives his insights.

Gerry Bacon shared his own photos of the "farm" and the invisible mountains in the background.

Carter Farm

Carter Farm

Carter Farm

Now on June 19, 2009, Cryptomundo has received a communique from one of the neighbors in the “Carter farm” area. It is very illuminating.

The internet is a funny thing. Items can exist on the web for years and years, unread by folks who may have deep knowledge of some facts. Then a person can stumble across info that may be evidence of a level of discussion about an issue that strikes so close to home, it can be a surprise to the reader. This appears to be the case behind the following comment, given here in 2009 about a posting from 2006:

OMG, I was browsing the internet and came upon this entire Carter farm fiasco.

I live about 1 mile from what is left of the Carter farm, and I can assure you that these photos ARE NOT photos of the Carter farm. These are photos of the Keith Toomey farm.

The only remaining parcel of land owned by a Carter family member is 2.5 acres that are owned by Lila R Carter, Janice’s sister. It consists of two ruster trailers, and a barn that is falling down. The place is so nasty, but Lila, her children and her boyfriend live there. Look folks, these [Russian and some American] researchers did not go to the neighbors and speak to any of us. I know.

I have lived on this road for 15 years, and my husband was born and raised here. We own a farm of 78 acres, and there are no creatures anywhere in this area that Janice Carter claims . Never have been. We have cattle, and have never lost one head by mysterious means. Some of you have hit on what really goes on.

No one in the community has anything to do with what is remaining of the Carter family. And it is not because of these lies they make up to get attention. As a matter of fact, today is the first time I had any knowledge of these stories. People do not have anything to do with them because they are nasty [characterization deleted]. Janice and her sister have been on welfare all of their adult lives. Neither of them have ever been married, but have seven children between them.

I am shocked and disgusted by what I have been reading on the internet today. I cannot believe that all of this has been going on for so long, and no one in this community other than the man that Janice and her uncle sold there part of the family farm to [knows].

I know this by reading other articles. His name is Dale Philpott, which is one of two of the people that own most of the farm property on this road. The other owning the most farm property is myself and my husband. There are small wooded areas scattered about, but no dense woodlands. Most of this property on this road is open farmland. ~ kd37354, June 19, 2009, AM.

Added comment, later:

If you are the brother of the gentleman that came to this community to research these tall tales, then he gave a very accurate description of what was the Carter farm. The house is in a state of disrepair, and there are now two rusted trailers, as well as a small barn that is falling apart, and garbage, rusted and junked cars, and poor starving animals, many that are on chains, and we can hear them being beaten and abused.

We have several head of cattle, and have been out at every hour during the night in the course of the years, and have never seen or heard anything that Janice claims is out here.

I cannot believe that this has been going on for years, and that we are just now finding out about all of the lies that the Carter women have spun for years….I was not being unkind in my description of Janice. Just accurate. ~ kd37354, June 19, 2009, PM.

Carter Family Drawing

Photographic recreation by Russian investigators of Janice Carter’s alleged incident when she said she pulled out hair from “Fox’s” hand when giving him some garlic, March 2004. This montage was made using a photograph of Carter in the same dress and position as then. After the first attempt of drawing this meeting, she corrected it several times until it achieved similarity to how she remembered it. Click on photo to make it larger.

Loren Coleman About Loren Coleman
Loren Coleman is one of the world’s leading cryptozoologists, some say “the” leading living cryptozoologist. Certainly, he is acknowledged as the current living American researcher and writer who has most popularized cryptozoology in the late 20th and early 21st centuries. Starting his fieldwork and investigations in 1960, after traveling and trekking extensively in pursuit of cryptozoological mysteries, Coleman began writing to share his experiences in 1969. An honorary member of Ivan T. Sanderson’s Society for the Investigation of the Unexplained in the 1970s, Coleman has been bestowed with similar honorary memberships of the North Idaho College Cryptozoology Club in 1983, and in subsequent years, that of the British Columbia Scientific Cryptozoology Club, CryptoSafari International, and other international organizations. He was also a Life Member and Benefactor of the International Society of Cryptozoology (now-defunct). Loren Coleman’s daily blog, as a member of the Cryptomundo Team, served as an ongoing avenue of communication for the ever-growing body of cryptozoo news from 2005 through 2013. He returned as an infrequent contributor beginning Halloween week of 2015. Coleman is the founder in 2003, and current director of the International Cryptozoology Museum in Portland, Maine.

99 Responses to “Carter Farm Update”

  1. Quakerhead responds:

    The first time that I heard this Carter woman’s story about her friend the Bigfoot and the garlic, I thought that it had to be a joke or the product of a delusional mind. Personally, I’m a believer in our hairy bipedal cousins, but this story was almost laughable from start to finish.

  2. mystery_man responds:

    I have never been one to laugh at this woman, nor have I been inclined to ridicule her. When watching interviews with her she seems sincere in that at least she seems to really believe that this is going on. However, the whole Carter farm story has always made me a little.. well.. skeptical. That’s the nicest way I can put it.

    If this new information is true, that really says a lot about not only the Carters credibility as witnesses (not sterling to begin with in my own humble opinion) but also of the poor handling of this investigation of the area that purported to take the claims seriously. Why would they not go around and interview the neighbors? Why not release the real information about the Carter farm? What is going on here? This is a fairly damning stuff for the credibility of all parties involved if it is legitimate.

  3. greywolf responds:

    When the story first came to light I thought it was fiction that the author and publisher forgot to label as fiction. I think the furry forest friend is real but I don’t think they show up for handouts. This is still a wild and very smart animal and the last place I would go if I were a Bigfoot would be some place that humans with guns were. I’m sure they learned that lesson eons ago.

  4. JMonkey responds:

    This story sounds like a lot of the BS in Southeastern Oklahoma. I have no doubt that there are Bipedal Apes in SE Oklahoma, but a lot of the people they find to talk to are nut cakes. I lived there for my first 21 years. I have seen black jaguars, alligators, and several unidentified blobsquatches from far away. So there are a lot of unknowns out there, but this story seemed ridiculous. Bigfoot is elusive for a reason. People suck, and he knows it. He doesn’t want to be shot and mounted, or dissected, or to have his grave decimated, or even to spend his time in a zoo. that is just not his style. Besides why would he ask her for garlic, when he could have got his own out of the garden. This lady needs to be committed.

  5. DWA responds:

    I have a tendency to smell fish with these habituation stories.

    I have real problems with habituators having no interest at all in bringing qualified scientists on site.

    That’s stretching it more than a bit much for me. No mega-media attention required; this can all be done on hush-hush (although obviously there would have to be agreement among parties to keep it so).

    Maybe, just maybe, someone might think: what if I throw a Bigfoot party and the guest of honor doesn’t show up?

    Maybe. But I can’t help wrinkling my nose a bit here.

    And here is a time when I am going to myself: no photos….? No video at all….????

  6. scrambeledeggman responds:

    Ah yes, my favorite Bigfoot story is still being talked about.

    What do we have? We have Loren’s brother “investigating” the farm and concluding it was a hoax.

    This story still is very fascinating to me. Of course 99% of the commenters here have not even read the book, so they really have no idea what they are talking about when they say “it was all made up”. People, read the book before you comment!

    The thing I find most fascinating about this story is Janice’s claim about the fact that Bigfoot has a language. I also find her claim that this language is made up of a variety of Native American languages, Spanish and a bit of English very interesting. When this was first published, people thought there was no way Bigfoot could have a language.

    Now, more evidence has surfaced that yes, Bigfoot does have a language (R. Scott Nelson report) and that language is a mix of Native American dialectics, with some Spanish and Pidgin English thrown in. Wow, that is exactly what Janice claimed in the book.

    Coincidence? Who knows, but I find it interesting as it seems to back up Janice’s claims.

    Now, with all that said, do I think Janice was 100% truthful? No. However, I don’t think she is 100% lying either. IMHO there is some truth in the book “50 years of co-existence”. I am sure as we learn more and more information about Bigfoot, we will find that this information will back up much of what was printed in Mary Green and Janice Carter’s book.

    As far as the person’s email about how they “have lived on this road for the last 15 years”. Well, once again, if you have read the book, you will know that most of these events took place more than 15 years ago, before “kd37354” lived on the street, so her claims really can’t be taken to heart.

    I look forward to more investigators looking into this amazing and hard to believe story, as it is really quite interesting.

  7. WOLVES-TALON responds:

    To take a phrase from a popular childrens’ movie “Aladdin”, “How am I not surprised!”

    I believe in constant habituations. I believe in encounters.

    Heck, I could even believe that they are genetically intelligent. But, ever since this began with the whole “garlic” thing and her talking to them, and them living in her basement (under the floor of her house), all I can realistically say is she is certifiably and with all due respect, CRAZY. Well, next to Tom Biscardi. Whom actually went there and said that they experienced what she has been claiming. Makes you wonder what was in the water supply. They both are deserving of adjoining padded cells. They both seem to believe the malarkey that floweth from their mouths.

    Now I feel sorry for her children and grandchildren. They have not a clue to the severity of the lies and deceit that she has propagated just to make a quick and almost believable buck.

    Thanks Loren

  8. kd37354 responds:

    Yes, I have only lived on this road for 15 years, that was when I married my husband that was born and raised on this road. His family has lived here for 60 years.

    I have spoken to both of my inlaws since yesterday, as well as his grandfather, which knew Robert Carter personally, and they all got a hearty laugh when I told them what I had stumbled across while browsing.

    My husband is a fourth generation farmer here. Trust me, if anyone in this family had ever seen or heard anything about this type of creature being here, they would have been the first ones to have someone out here to find out what it was.

    No, I have not read the book, as I only found out about all of this just yesterday. But if one of your neighbors said they had a family of these creatures coming around, and if your property literally connected with theirs, would you have to have a book to know it was not true?

    This is not street. It is a rural road in Madisonville, Tennessee in Monroe County. Reynolds Rd to be exact.

  9. PhotoExpert responds:

    The book? Yep, I read the “stories”. I put this up there with the BF eating pancakes in Kentucky or where ever it was. So BF likes garlic and pancakes and will habituate with people that have them on hand. Right, sure he does! LOL

    The book does make for interesting reading. Like any book, if you put yourself into it, it all becomes believable. Even if the premise is flawed, it is enjoyable to imagine if the things written therein, are true. But that is about as far as I would allow myself to go. Fun? Yes! Interesting? Yes! Believable as truth? No!

    As for the “language” part of it. It is plausible. But only coincidental at best for this point in time. I am not buying the whole language thing. This cryptic creature has not even been proven to exist, although I suspect they do exist. But are we now assigning languages to creatures that have not even been proven to exist. I hear elves have a language of their own too! This is just rubbish! Even if one had audio recordings of some creature speaking, you would have to link that proof to the actual existence of the creature and that has not been done. Yes, you might have something on audio but where did it come from?

    I am not buying any of the trailer encounter stories! I do buy kd37354’s stories though. This poster seems very credible. This poster, although a bit condescending at times towards the Carters, does not seem out of place for someone who might intimately know a person and is tired of their ways of life. If someone lied to me or made up stories to back a hidden agenda, I might take it personally too. I give kd37354 the benefit of the doubt here, just for that reason. I also appreciate people like kd37354 that come forward, to set a story straight that has run too long without being corrected. People will say what they want to say because they are not challenged and get away with it. That emboldens them to up the ante. What this poster did was to call their bluff! Thank you!

  10. rsswope responds:

    Since I first heard of the story years ago, I felt there was some mental illness involved with the supposed eyewitnesses. From the description of their lifestyle and environment I cannot but feel my initial assessment has been reinforced.

    I think we should not be so quick to accuse and judge the Carter family, it could be they think these events truly happened. But I think it is evident they need some psychiatric attention.

    It might or might not be that they wished a public spotlight, but they truly need help instead of scorn. Even though their actions do discredit the field of unknown American Hominid research, most rational thinking people had very serious doubts from the beginning. At the most it just validates an unfortunate stereotype, in the least it shows our readiness to accept what we hope is the nature of these unknown primates, a species similar to our own that have an evolved sense of peace and harmony with their fellow beings.

  11. zytebac responds:

    The First Nations People have stories of hearing bigfoot using language, as well as many sincere witnesses.
    But I believe what the bigfoot is doing is using mimicry, not speaking.
    They can mimic many species of animals as well as make other noises, like whistles, clicks and popping sounds.
    As far as learning speech, I wouldn’t discount the notion. If other animals can be taught to understand words, why not?

  12. korollocke responds:

    Bigfoot in her basement….This loon has seen Harry and the Hendersons one time too many.

  13. WOLVES-TALON responds:

    Thank You for your input and clarity into this farce kd37354. It is finally time that someone came forth and spoke up, even though you just recently became aware of this travesty.

    Now, maybe others will come forth about other notable incidents, that we have questioned for years.

    But we really only have ONE person to thank for this coming to the surface….that is you Loren.


  14. southland responds:

    “Not being unkind?” “Just being accurate?”

    Let’s see – you’ve incorrectly called Ms. Carter’s three daughters illegitimate, when actually, she has been married/divorced and none of her children were born out of wedlock (readers of this forum and most BF forums should remember her married name of Coy). You have the total number of children between Ms. Carter and her sister incorrect, as well.

    You’ve implied some very bad behaviors based on the current condition of the land and facilities, which Ms. Carter has not owned for many years, and for which she has not been responsible since the farm was sold to Mr. Philpott.

    You’ve said that both Ms. Carter and her sister have been on “welfare” all their adult lives, when in reality, Tennessee is not even a welfare state. Ms. Carter has held several jobs through the years in various places in the local communities, and she has not even spent her entire life in Tennessee — nor does she even live there now. You should know that, if you are indeed a “neighbor.”

    You’re correct that the pictures aren’t of the Carter Farm. However, Mr. Toomey has been dead for quite a long time – much more than the 15 years you claim to have lived there. His son didn’t even inherit all of the farm. So, why aren’t you calling this property by the right owner’s name?

    No dense woods? The foothills of the Smokies, only a mile or so away, offer tens of thousands of acres of dense woods. And there are plenty of wooded areas throughout the local farms. Of course, if you have lived in the area only 15 years, you wouldn’t remember forests that were cut long ago when Mr. Carter was living.

    No one has spoken with the neighbors? Well, all I can say is that you’re not in the loop and you certainly don’t speak for all of the neighbors.

    People may disagree with Ms. Carter’s beliefs and may not believe her story – that’s their right. I have looked into her case myself and I have different opinions. But I’m disappointed to see such crass gossip appear in an otherwise informative venue. And based on some of the SIMPLE facts you have stated incorrectly, I have my doubts as to whether or not you are actually a member of Ms. Carter’s former community. Her sister has never been an active participant in the telling of the family’s BF experiences, as she keeps more to herself. So I find it interesting that you have pulled Lila into this.

    I think you made this post simply because you are upset about how poorly Ms. Carter’s sister and her boyfriend keep up their small property – yes, it’s an eyesore, alright, but it has nothing to do with Ms. Carter. And if you’re upset about any sounds coming from Lila’s property, perhaps you should go over and tell her. She is deaf, after all … oh, wait … as a “neighbor,” you should know that.

  15. hudgeliberal responds:

    First let me say that I find the remarks about the personal life of the Carters disgusting. What gives this person the right to JUDGE anyone? I think we have had enough of that kind of attitude in this country(8 years worth). However,I have always thought that the Carter story was simply a big,hairy,tall tale told by someone in search of attention or by,as some imply above,someone struggling with mental health issues. I think that the time has come to move these so called “habituators” to the neverlands of EB world. On a recent blogtalk show one of these people who claim to always have bigfoot on their property,got defensive and refused to answer legit questions made by a caller to the show. That is what always seems to be the case with these type of people. They come to public forums(newspaper,magazines,television and radio)and make these ridiculous claims yet refuse to answer simply questions or offer any proof whatsoever. Instead the guy used the oldest trick in the book by repeatedly answering a question with a question. I say it is time to seperate those who try to use science and realistic methods from those who just make up stories and seek attention. It really is simple. For us to get the funding necessary for a longterm scientific study,we must present ourselves as sane and rational individuals. As long as we continue to give these “habituators” and “paranormalists” our time,attention and public forums to spread their lunacy,we will never garner the right kind of attention from mainstream science. I love a good story,especially one told by a great storyteller,as much as the next person,its just time to leave those stories in the fiction section and out of our research and especially our public forums. In these days when anyone with an internet connection can start a “radio show”,we are entering dangerous territory…just listen to a few of the sasquatch related shows on blogtalk. Scary to see just how many people will believe this nonsense. I hope that the few remaining shows that are halfway decent will realise that they have a responsibility to the communuty and will stop letting these people spread their far-fetched stories. Oh well,done ranting for today. Peace.

  16. WOLVES-TALON responds:

    NOW, I am not the type of person who jumps to the defense of people that I do not personally know but I am going to do it here.

    NO-ONE here has ever mentioned Janices’ sister, or the validity of the illegitimacy of children or grandchildren in this venue.

    We here are not judging on assumptions, we are commenting on what is known and what has been put out there. She (janice) put-it-out there many years ago, with her “story” and has kept this going til the present day on a well known Blogtalk radio show. We are not making up information. We are sharing points of view on the information that has been openly shared by Ms. Carter ( coy).

    This is MY opinion !

    Thank You Loren !

  17. MattBille responds:

    Stories where a sasquatch has gotten used to humans and the human has never taken a picture are always suspicious to me (reasons why a picture was not taken, or not attempted, are not evidence.)

  18. DWA responds:

    I can understand someone habituating a sasquatch – even for years – and never taking a picture or a video, never calling a scientist…and never, ever, breathing a word of it to a soul.

    What I cannot get my arms around is someone making it public that they are doing this…and doing nothing to document what they have made public. Anyone not documenting activity that they are blaring – or even leaking – to the world at large has got to expect a skeptical response.

  19. Jeremy_Wells responds:

    I gotta say that:

    1) I’ve always been more than a little suspicious of the Carter-Coy story. In fact, I’ve generally thought the individuals involved were delusional at best (or deceitful at worst), but I have no vested interest one way or another in the outcome, know none of the individuals involved personally, and as a student of sociology, I’m as interested in how people convince themselves fallacies are true as I am in how people deny clear evidence.

    2) While I don’t have any vested interest in anyone’s personal quarrels here, or who believes or defends whom, in the interest of following all potential motivations behind various individuals chiming in on this, I do feel the need to point out that Wolves-Talon has overlooked some comments. Some commenters have, indeed, made personal comments about the Carter sisters, as evidenced by the excerpt Loren quotes in the article above; specifically “People do not have anything to do with them because they are nasty [characterization deleted]. Janice and her sister have been on welfare all of their adult lives. Neither of them have ever been married, but have seven children between them.”

    I think that’s pretty clear evidence of some folks mentioning Janice’s sister, and the legitimacy of their children (although, granted, it isn’t from Loren or any of the regular commenters or contributors to Cryptomundo.)

    There is also the unsubstantiated claims about animal abuse. Again, these statements may be true. They may be false. I do not know. But they have been made, and reprinted in this forum.

    3) Before it is ever brought up, I don’t think there is anything wrong with Loren reprinting these statements by another individual as long as they are taken for what they are, still more unsubstantiated claims from another individual with an interest in this saga (for whatever reason) who may or may not have their own agenda and reasons for making said comments.

    Personally, I don’t think there is ever going to be much valid data to come out of this, as far as cryptozoological evidence is concerned. Just my take on the whole thing.

    BUT, as far as a study of human motivations, psychology, and community dynamics, there may be more material to mine here in the future (especially in the realm of confabulation, if Carter is as sincere in her beliefs as she seems to be.)

  20. Tobiathan responds:

    I wonder what the “neighbor”‘s agenda is? Anyone THAT ready to post online about how unworthy someone else is HAS to have an agenda. What kind of decent person even makes those kinds of judgements on the lives of others?

    kd37354 sounds a little arrogant to me.

    As to the claims by Ms. Carter-Coy: they do sound far-fetched, but i saw an interview, and she at least seems to believe what she says.

    All in all her story is interesting, at least. I take any unsubstantiated claim with a grain of salt, but i do appreciate the stimulating concepts presented.

  21. Bill N. responds:

    I have read and enjoyed this blog for a many months now. However, having been to “The Carter Farm” on several occassions; I know first hand that the bigfoot tales were (are) genuine. I have known Ms. Carter for years and believe her to be “truthful”. Is there proof of the bigfoot peoples living on her farm at one time? Well, yes there is. BUT, is it shared with the general bigfoot community? NO it is not (for the obvious reasons).

    I wholeheartedly believe that Mr. Coleman’s “supposed” email from a “supposed” neighbor is an intentional fabrication and a malicious attack on Ms. Carter apparently for no reason at all. Other than simply to be nasty!

    I have wondered over the past days as to how Mr. Coleman would react if someone were to lay his personal life out on a limb for all to read? If someone were to dig up the most “not so proud” parts of his life and expose them all over the internet? Is that not what Coleman attempted to do here?

    It wasn’t that long ago when we all read and saw how Coleman reacted when the Georgia Hoaxers held a public book-burning in his honor on their back porch. I actually felt sorry for Coleman but yet he demonstrates the same behavior here on his blog towards Ms. Carter.

    Atleast Coleman should have had the intestinal fortitude NOT to publish the “ill” email whether actually received or written by himself. I think Mr. Coleman should have researched the statements in the email further before just simply throwing it out there knowing it would cause harm to everyone involved in the “Carter Farm Situation”.

    So, what have we learned here? Well, evidently Mr. Coleman thinks that Janice Carter is a liar. But it extends into a larger scope does it not? By describing Ms. Carter a liar; Mr. Coleman thinks that Dr. Igor Bourtsev, Mr. Dmitri Bayonov and a host of other prominent scientists and followers are liars as well. Why? Because these individuals also believe in what Janice Carter has experienced and continues to experience.

    This entire episode that Mr. Coleman has intentionally inflicted (because he had a choice “to post” or “not to post” a very disruptive “so-called” email from a “non-existent” neighbor) on Ms. Carter has turned many stomachs in the bigfoot community. Mine in particular! Moreover, the Russians! One often wonders why Mr. Coleman is “going broke” when he publishes and stirs the pot like this.
    I must say that after this first and only post; that myself and others may not return to this blog for some time if ever.

    Bill E.

  22. Loren Coleman responds:

    The emotional and ridiculous claims of “Bill E.” or “Bill N.” (he uses both to denote himself) are rather reflective of the emotional nature of the “Carter Farm true believers.” It is easier to distract those looking for proof with false accusations than come up with any evidence of Bigfoot presence.

    Needless to say, I did not write the emails from the Carter’s neighbors, for any internal reading of them would demonstrate names and locations I don’t have the fogginess notions about as merely reporter on these events.

    But when have facts or even intriguing emails from those who have something to say in this melodrama stand in the way of those attempting to psychologically state what arises spontaneously in them rather than through any conscious logical effort. I suggest it says much that individuals who “believe” I wrote these emails also “believe” in the seemingly outrageous Carter Farm claims.

  23. mystery_man responds:

    MattBille- It is my understanding that in these Bigfoot “habituation” cases, there is often the reason given that the Bigfoot “doesn’t like cameras” or “won’t let them take a photo” or some such nonsense. There seems to always be a convenient excuse for not collecting a shred of evidence even with prolonged close proximity to the alleged creatures. The story doesn’t require any evidence at all, and yet when people naturally question it, they are vehemently attacked. Which brings me to my next thought.

    As far as the above “Bill E.” post, all I can say is wow. That is a fairly rambling, irrational post. Notice that no new information is given, no understanding at all gained from the rant, and no attempts made to clarify the situation whatsoever. It just distracts from and obfuscates the real issue here, and that is whether the Carter farm is really experiencing Bigfoot visitations.

    Instead of further alienating the greater crytozoology community with these flames, I think it is perhaps in the “believers” best interest to just make sure that evidence is produced to prove the naysayers wrong rather than knee jerk attacking those who express their quite understandable doubts. Maybe it would be a better idea to stop defending the witnesses’ claims so fanatically, and just provide something, anything to lead us to suspect that this all isn’t a bunch of hogwash. That’s all anyone really expects, and I’m sure anyone here who is quite rightly not convinced would be more than pleased to be proven wrong on this and eat crow.

    But added rants are not really accomplishing much in this respect, and do not help the Carters’ case. What do most people think when someone gets defensive and testy when challenged or called out on their stories? Right, it does not paint a good picture.

    I have nothing against the Carters personally. I’m not out to tear the story apart. But I do find the claims to be dubious and sorely lacking in any evidence, and I find the attacks by their proponents against Loren to be evasive, misguided and counterproductive at best.

  24. raisinsofwrath responds:

    Here’s the bottom line:

    Carter family makes fantastic claims. Book comes out.


    Jan Coy had a 35 mm SLR camera with a 300 mm zoom lens yet we only get the usual blobsquatch pics. If they came face to face on as many occasions as claimed they should have a veritable slide show album of close ups. Of course they try to explain this away by saying the BF would run and hide when a camera appeared. Oh, brother!!! The point is, if the story were factual they would figure out a way to get close up shots.

    Waste of time IMO.

  25. gkingdano responds:

    With garlic pancakes to eat, maybe they should be call: Skunk-breath Apes.

  26. Jeremy_Wells responds:

    Color me thick, Bill E./N., but what are the “obvious reasons” for not sharing clear evidence with a group of open-minded researchers who would be willing to give it the benefit of the doubt and weigh it on its own merits?

  27. grandmamoses responds:

    We know from Henry Franzoni’s book, who worked with the four horsemen, that Bigfoot are interdimensional. We know the same from other books and many Native American tribes. Whenever outsiders look at the Carter Farm, they completely fail to consider that little detail, and eagerly jump to the conclusion that Janice Carter is lieing. Ask David Mann of Portland Oregon, who also visited the Carter Farm and many major researchers across America. He repeatedly claims that he saw Fox and that Janice Carter is telling the truth. Of course, he does not have one arm tied behind his back as most contributors here apparently do, in that he is also aware of the interdimensional nature of the Bigfoot people.

  28. Kronprinz_adam responds:

    The Carter farm novelization is nice to read, people can enjoy reading and imaginating the adventures of Fox. A different thing is to prove that the entire story is based in real events. If so, it could change anthropology forever, if we can show that Bigfoot creatures do exist, and moreover, they can learn, speak and establish bonds with humans.
    But here’s the central point of the whole affair. Scientific proofs. (Hair, footprints, clear fotos, scientific research…).
    (And we got again the same answers: Bigfoot cannot be seen, he does not like fotos, he migrated somewhere else, his hairs prove to be from other known animals…)

  29. cliff responds:

    Comments like this really rub me the wrong way:

    Bill N or Bill E writes:

    Is there proof of the bigfoot peoples living on her farm at one time? Well, yes there is. BUT, is it shared with the general bigfoot community? NO it is not (for the obvious reasons).

    What are the “obvious reasons” that the evidence hasn’t been shared with the general BF community?

    You rush to the defense of Janice Carter and her family, insist that anyone who is skeptical of her claims is guilty of a malicious personal attack against her, but refuse to add any credibility to this fiasco by simply producing evidence that proves that her claim is genuine. That is ridiculous, in and of itself. If there was real proof to support these claims, then certainly that proof would have been presented when this story was first made public, unless of course there is no proof and this habituation story is nothing but pure fabrication for personal gain, or a mentally unstable person seeking attention.

    It also seems that if you were so interested in protecting Janice Carter’s reputation, you yourself would enlighten us with your “proof” to finally put an end to this question. But from your post, it is obvious that you have no proof and can only rely on your false accusations to distract from the real truth here.

    It may seem harsh to bring comments about Ms. Carter’s personal lifestyle into the mix, but a person’s lifestyle says alot about a person’s character, and a person’s character says lot about their credibility. I understood that to be the point of commenter kd37354 telling us what she knows about the Carters and their way of life.

    After reading through all of this I really feel that claims like these, that offer nothing in the way of proof, should not be given any further consideration by serious Bigfoot investigators. At least not until such time as tangible evidence to support the claims can be submitted for analysis.

  30. Alligator responds:

    The Carter farm story ranks up there with the Georgia Bigfoot of last year. Treat it as entertainment, nothing more.

  31. ScottAR responds:

    There’s a strange kind of irony here. How many people have not reported Bigfoot encounters for fear of being called a liar or crazy; yet many on this website are saying exactly that about the Carters. I’m not saying we shouldn’t look at these reports with a critical eye, but lets be mindful of our language, so we don’t discourage others from reporting what they have seen.

  32. Jeremy_Wells responds:

    Sorry ScottAR and Grandmamoses, but if we don’t demand extreme evidence for extreme claims, then our credibility as unbiased researchers are on the line.
    The last witness I interviewed did not balk a bit when I questioned the validity of his claims. He simply assured me, with calm deliberation, that while he did not get a clear look at details, he was confident that what he saw was not a bear or a human prowler. He didn’t get upset when I asked if this is what they might be. He also didn’t make any outrageous claims and then backpedal with excuses for not presenting the evidence.

    Personally Grandma, I’m a skeptic, but I’m open to the possibility of other dimensions. However when you start claiming that BF simply disappear into the fourth dimension when you try and take their picture, well… that is an extreme claim that demands extreme evidence. You can’t just throw it out there and say “accept it”.

    We are involved, ostensibly, in scientific research. And that demands quantifiable evidence. Otherwise, if we are taking things on faith, we are crossing into the realm of spirituality. And if your particular brand of spirituality involves psychic communion with dolphins or bigfoot, great. More power to you. But its not science. We can’t “prove” the existence of these creatures based on these faith based explanations any more than science can “prove” the existence of a God.

    If bigfoot studies are more a matter of faith for you than a matter of scientific inquiry, that is fine, but Cryptomundo and some other cryptozoological blogs might not be the proper forum for you.

    I am trying very hard not to disrespect your beliefs. I even think study into the potential reality of other dimensions, via physics research, is a valid pursuit. But faith based inquiries and scientific inquiries are very different from, and should be kept separate from, one another.

  33. CryptoInformant 2.0 responds:

    Interdimensional…? Oi.

    Not to go off the beaten path here, but it seems that the word “dimension” is being thrown around in a very “bad 50s sci-fi movie” kind of way. Dimensions are, essentially, the parameters of our universe: 3 regarding movement (vertical, lateral, depth), and, as Einstein proved, a 4th – time. Now, according to current theories (in particular, one known by the offhand name of M-theory) there are about 7 other dimensions that have no known application to everyday existence, instead affecting only subatomic particles.

    So, in short, Bigfoot cannot jump into the “4th Dimension” any more than you or I can leap into a wristwatch, Grandmamoses.

  34. PhotoExpert responds:

    Wow! That is about all I can say about the post from Bill N. He seems very emotional by the wording in his post and very disappointed. However, since he posted himself, the words contained in that post, it opens his post up for criticism. And as one that seeks the truth, I must comment on his post.

    Bill N, although we appreciate your post and your emotional beliefs, at this blog, we try to make things as scientific as possible, using the scientific method. You stated, “However, having been to “The Carter Farm” on several occassions; I know first hand that the bigfoot tales were (are) genuine.”

    So what proof do you have and have not offered here for evalution to all of us? Please share with the Cryptomundo readers here, your proof. You said you have been here for a couple of months enjoying the blog. Many like myself, have been here for years. But even if you have been here a couple of months, you should know by now, how this blog works. If you have proof, you don’t criticize people, you share the proof for analysis. Again, what proof do you have to offer the readers here? Please share!

    You also stated, that by Loren sharing the letter from the neighbor was malicious. You also stated that it was an intentional fabrication by Loren used in a malicious attack. Are you kidding me? Are you telling us Crytomundo readers here that you possess the unique ability to look into the heart and mind of another human being and KNOW their intentions? Because that is what you stated about Loren. And if you have been a reader here for months as you state, you should know by now, that Loren is not that kind of man. So your beliefs do not equal the reality at hand. Your beliefs about Loren, go against the facts of time. You have just characterized Loren as a liar and worse than that. You are stating that he lied with intention to be malicious towards the Carter family. Where is your proof on this? Again, don’t make statements without supplying the proper proof!

    And worse than that. The same things you accuse Loren of doing and kd37354 of doing, you have just done to Loren. That my friend, is being hypicritical. You seem to the be the one with malicious intentions. You are the pot calling the kettle black!

    You write on and on about Loren’s supposed intentions. When in actuallity, all Loren did was publish at this blog, a letter disputing the facts of Carter’s stories. If Carter made unsubstantiated and outrageous claims, anyone has the right to question those claims. kd37354 did just that! That is newsworthy. So Loren published that letter here. He reported news. There was no malice in that. And how you can perceive intentional malice and call Loren nasty, is beyond belief! He published breaking news and reported it here. That is what objective individuals do in this business. The way you see things, the reporters who reported the 9-11 stories were terrorists. Give me a break! Give us all a break!

    Bill N also stated that Mr. Coleman thinks Carter is a liar. Prove that statement for us Bill N. Where did Loren call Ms. Carter a liar? Show us that in black and white. Please supply that proof!

    You know Bill N, there is a reoccurring theme that you seem to be establishing here. You keep making ridiculous statements and then fail to supply the truth and facts and evidence to back up your statements. Why is that? Do you have an alterior motive or some kind of agenda? Is it that the facts coming to light with contradictory stories about the Carters is in violation of your heartfelt beliefs? If so, one way to correct that is to supply the truth and evidence and not try and kill the messenger. You fail to supply any facts, yet you have no problem attacking the messenger. You have done exactly what you accuse Mr. Coleman of doing. You should practice what you preach!

    Bill N also states, “One often wonders why Mr. Coleman is “going broke” when he publishes and stirs the pot like this.”

    WOW! Just WOW! After your blind defense of Ms. Carter and your attack on the neighbor and Loren, you FAIL to practice what you preach. You posted about how wrong it is to attack someone personally in a blog. And you just attacked Loren and exposed his personal financial affairs. What a hypicrit you are! That is truly unbelievable! Which makes makes you guilty of the exact things you perceived about Loren. Your perception about Loren was incorrect. But now there is no mistake about your intentions. You actually did what you perceived about Loren. Unbelievable! Now the sincerity of your post is in question. If you truly think it was wrong for Loren to report on a letter he received, then you posting about Loren’s financial affairs with malicious venom and calling him a liar without proof, brings into question your credibility!

    I just had to point that out! I caught it! I pointed it out! And hopefully, everyone will see what I saw and pointed out.

    I do have one more question for you that brings into light your sincerity. Are you who you think or say you are? Your screen name is Bill N, yet you sign your post Bill E. Why is that? Perhaps that screen name was already taken. But it does kind of make one wonder after all the other hypicrisies you posted here. Just wondering!

    Bill N or Bill E also stated, “I must say that after this first and only post; that myself and others may not return to this blog for some time if ever.”

    So after months of being here supposedly, this is your first post? OK, I’ll take you at your word. On second thought, because of the contradictions you already posted here with your first post, I will have to question that. If you were here for months as you stated, you would have already known that Loren holds no malice towards anyone. And I find it highly improbable for someone that has been here for months, not to post at least once. Yet you say this is your first and last post. I call BS on that!

    What I think happened is that you heard about this thread on the Carter’s neighbor. If you were reading here for the last few months, it would not have taken you days to respond. Logic tells me and others here, that you heard about this through the grapevine. You are a Carter believer. Without presenting any proof or facts, you came here to attack Loren maliciously and contradict yourself on several occassions, thus exposing you and your true nature. Unlike the Carter story, this is more likely than not!

    If this is your last post here, I thank you in advance!

  35. cliff responds:

    ScottAR – I’m not referring to, or advocating, an argument that all BF sightings/reports be dismissed if they aren’t accompanied by tangible evidence, so let’s not confuse the issue. I’m talking about this particular case, the Janice Carter habituation case, where this lady claims to have had a long term sort of relationship with a Bigfoot and has enough alleged “information” about the subject to write a book, yet does not submit one single shred of evidence for scientific analysis. And we have fanatics rushing to her defense, who also claim to be aware of conclusive “proof” that her claim is genuine, yet cannot, or has not, provided said proof.

    So it’s one thing to have a momentary encounter with a BF and not have any tangible evidence of that encounter, and the only evidence of said encounter being that person’s word, but it’s something else entirely to claim to have numerous encounters over a long period of time and have evidence but not present it.

    There is no reason whatsoever, even the “obvious reasons” (which, btw, aren’t obvious to me), to keep this evidence from the public. Why would they? They have released information about the location, right? So it obviously isn’t a matter of protecting the Bigfoot, since being armed with that knowledge of the location anyone could go out and hunt for the creature. So what does the withholding of the evidence accomplish?

    The only “obvious reason” that I can think of to withhold the evidence is because the evidence simply doesn’t exist!

  36. grandmamoses responds:

    Jeremy Wells,
    Extreme claims are in the eye of the beholder. The interdimensional/paranormal Bigfoot theory that can sometimes be field verified and is corroborated by the anecdotal evidence in The Locals, accepts the part time existence of the Bigfoot in the fully flesh and blood dimension. Although Franzoni refers to additional “perplexing powers” of the Bigfoot that are beyond explanation by merely referring to an ability to change dimensions or phases, the interdimensional explanation is a whole lot closer to explaining all evidence and observations, than the alleged 24/7 flesh and blood existence. The 24/7 F&B existence does not accept even the part time existence in any dimension other than man’s, therefore that explanation does not encompass the paranormal explanation. Consequently, the 24/7 F&B existence would be the less likely of the two and therefore the more “extreme” explanation. Since there are also no documented reports of researchers living with Bigfoot year round, 24/7, then there is no proof that Bigfoot is in fact 24/7 F&B. That convenient existence is merely an explanation that causes the least amount of psychological trauma in persons who are not fully equipped to accept any dimensions other than their own. So please pony up your proof of the real extreme explanation, if you got it. Physicists are prolific liars because they also are not interested in being ostracized for proposing hypothesis that the general public does not have the stomach for, so they will be no help in this debate.

  37. Miss G-force responds:

    Hello, I wonder if we could all be a little more peaceful about this issue? There are many aspects about our attempts to understand Bigfoot that are both deeply intriguing and also deeply unsatisfying at the same time, and this ‘Carter farm’ story is just another one.

    Personally, I think we should not dismiss the Carter farm story just because it appears too ‘far out’ to be believeable. There are many well documented ‘habituation’ reports from villages in parts of the Causcus mountains in South Russia/Georgia. Those involved even closer habituation and among many more people than the Carter family.

    I also understood that it was the grandfather of ‘Janice’ who had formed the close relationship with the Bigfoot family, and she herself had never had the confidence to get close them after he died. So, she has been leaving food out for them, but only observing them from a distance.

    I also want to say that I did not find Bill E.’s post emotional or irrational (at least not more than other posts on this issue!). It made good sense to me.

    So, while I’m inclined to believe the Carter story, for those who cannot accept it now, perhaps it can just be filed as another annoying ‘unresolved’ issue, rather than definitely be dismissed? That way, at least all sides can continue to exchange views until we can reach a more unified outlook on this.

  38. PhotoExpert responds:

    I almost forgot, I wanted to respond to Grandmamoses.

    Jeremy_Wells summed it up very nicely! Good job Jeremy and you made my job a little easier because of your well written post.

    As my screen name implies, I am an expert in optical physics. I can go on and on about Wave Theory, Partical Theory, Quantum Theory, String Theory, etc. But I would not want to bore the layman with technical jibberish.

    One thing is for certain though, if we see it with our eyes, we are able to photograph it, given the proper conditions such as weather, and given the proper tools. Anything our eyes can see, can be recorded digitally. We then have some evidence for analysis. As Jeremy so eloquently pointed out, if someone saw something numerous times, you would think that the person seeing it, would have recorded it on at least one occassion. And the only excuse for not being able to do so, is because the subject went into another dimension.

    Interdimensional theory or Multidimensional theory is a possibility. However, anything morphing into our dimension, even under this theory, would have to obey all of the laws of physics, within this dimension, at the time the subject is within the confines of this dimension.

    While a transient subject in our dimension, the properties of the optical physics come into play. And whether you are a believer in the particle theory of light, the wave theory of light, or believe in a combination theory of light as both particles and waves, one thing is for certain–the physical properties of light behave as they should in this dimension. That is not subjective. Physics is objective. It is the witness that is subjective in the explanation of which theory they adhere to.

    In conclusion, if you can see it with the naked eye, it can be photographed. You just have to have the tools on hand and know how to use them! An excuse of a subject warping into another dimension when an object such as a camera is pulled out, is incredulous.

    Thanks again Jeremy for your outstanding and very logical post!

  39. DWA responds:

    My problem with this whole thing is what I call the You Must Believe Me! Fallacy.

    Numerous people who have had, shall we say, a slightly non-standard day seem to think that their firsthand experience perforce constitutes The Proof For Which The World is Waiting. I mean, they saw it! And it MUST be real, because it’s real to them! And it certainly may be more real to them than, say, you or me in our Cryptomundic cyber-guises. Heck, we could be nothing more than a concatenation of ones and zeros for all they know, but THEY SAW THIS.

    That’s fine. And you know what someone who knows this kind of stuff says about this? (Someone whose name runs away from me now but I can get it quick?) She says (yes, it is a she): as long as the sasquatch is the experience of only those who see it, as opposed to a shared community experience, the sasquatch will remain hallucinatory *as that word is defined in Western culture* (emphasis there, big time).

    In other words: if you have seen it, you [may] have your proof. The rest of us don’t; we need evidence; you need to wait for us; and we hope you understand. (After all: YOU could be nothing more than a concatenation of ones and zeros for all WE know. Kidding. OK, not really.) Many sas sighters have been permanently scarred by their experience of something Everyone Knows Isn’t Real. Because they can’t get their arms around everyone else needing proof when THEY HAVE IT!

    This is the only way I can understand screeds like Bill N’s. (And Bill E’s, both of ‘em, dammit.) If the person I knew and trusted above all reported a sas sighting to me, tomorrow, in compelling detail….OK, well, I’d have to think about this, but I have a hard time saying that I’d suddenly switch from skeptic to proponent. Where’s *my* proof, huh? Someone’s word? Why didn’t I just take the avalanche of evidence I have already seen for proof, if it’s that close? One story is gonna turn me? Dunno about you; but I doubt it.

    Now. If I see one tomorrow, Bigfoot’s real, gang. And I will laugh at every scoftical post (and pity every honest skeptic) I read from that point on. Those poor devils. I know, and they don’t. Shame. For them.


    At the most, I will say: look, I’ve seen one, and I know they’re real. Don’t expect that to convince you; but you might want to look at the evidence. But I’m sure not gonna get upset at you. Why SHOULD you believe me?

    Now. If ‘Bigfoot confirmed’ shows up in Yahoo! News tomorrow: I’ll go: EUREKA! PROOF! Sorry, Best-Trusted Friend in All The World. This isn’t about you. This is about community (as in scientific) as opposed to personal proof. You could – somehow almost-but-not-inconceivably – have been wrong. The Press, however, isn’t just going to suddenly roll over, after decades of scoffing, unless the goods are well and truly in. I might take a couple of days to digest what they’re saying to make sure no one is being hoaxed here. But community proof and individual proof are different. *I* have to be the individual it is proven to; *you* won’t cut it (although I will, if you are close and trusted enough, put you waaaaay up on my Exhibit List).

    Long post slightly longer: I don’t care how sure you are. You can’t expect us to buy it – real or not! – unless we have the evidence to review ourselves.

    This isn’t about you. It’s about human nature; and about decades of conditioning; and about The Way Life Is.

    Chill! If you know, why get so upset about it? I’d be LOVING IT. And, I believe it would behoove me, keeping my mouth shut.

  40. Jeremy_Wells responds:

    I’ve no intention of arguing back and forth on this all day, so this will be my last post on this particular aspect of this debate.

    In regards to your inter-dimensional theory, I have never claimed that there is any more proof of the flesh-and-blood theory than there is of the inter-dimensional/paranormal theory.

    I’m familiar with the more paranormal stories regarding bigfoot, as well as older and native accounts with a more spiritual aspect. I find them interesting. Unlike most other skeptics, I don’t throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater because they are unverifiable. Indeed, if I were to do so, I’d have to deny the flesh and blood existence of coyote based on Coyote trickster tales, or the existence of labrador retrievers based on English Black-Dog stories.

    I’m familiar with the paranormal explanations. I’m intrigued by them. Cryptomundo isn’t really the place for serious debate of paranormal explanations though. It’s a cryptozoology site, and cryptozoology is (has been for a long time) slowly gaining acceptance as a legitimate field of field biology. (Anyone else remember the story in that mainstream science magazine after the discovery of the Hobbit calling us all “in from the cold”?) This kind of study is based on verifiable, measurable evidence.

    I’m glad to discuss more paranormal events. Shoot, I might even surprise you with my knowledge. But it does no good for the advancement of this field, as a legitimate field of study, to lump the two together. By example, we might mention aspects of real coyote biological behavior when exploring the Coyote trickster tales in a folklore class, and conversely we might mention the trickster tales briefly in a biology class. But they are two separate areas of study and need to be addressed as such, even when aspects are complimentary.

    By way of evidence and my skepticism, I will take the time to share a story that I have not often shared before. I came into this field as an inquisitive child, ten years old, reading books like “Mysterious America”. I read anything I could on cryptozoology, ufology, folklore, and general fortean phenomenon.

    As I grew older I became less concerned with the flesh and blood reality of this creature (and the other phenomenon), and more interested in why people believed what they had seen. They were obviously not all lying, but having seen the effects of confabulation, both in real life and in my studies, my skepticism grew to healthy levels. Again, my interest wasn’t so much in “Did they really see this flesh and blood creature?” as it was “If they are convinced they saw this, why did they interpret what they had seen in this way? To paraphrase Jacques Vallee, we can only explain the unknown in terms of the known. So what was the unknown they had seen, and why did they choose their particular set of knowns (apes, bigfoot) over another more plausible set of knowns (bears, prowlers) to explain what they had seen? I didn’t have the answers, but I was curious in how we perceive things.

    Back to the promised personal story; this skepticism began to ebb after I began interacting regularly with other researchers and investigating on my own, in earnest. During one outing in the swamps of the southern US I came across what I consider good evidence of the “flesh and blood” theory in the form of a track. Now, this track wasn’t the “smoking gun” that we’ve been looking for. I have no desire to add to the abundance of inconclusive evidence. This track essentially has no meaning to anyone except myself and the other that saw it, because no one else experienced the events surrounding its discovery. Trust me, it wasn’t the bare, human like footprint that convinced me to open my mind even more to the possibility of a flesh and blood explanation over the psychological explanation I embraced before. Overall it was unremarkable. It wasn’t overly large. It could have been a human footprint. But it was deep in the swamps, where no other people would likely be. And if they were there, the likelihood of them moving about unshod was even less likely. Again, this was enough to make me begin re-examining the personal biases that had developed over the course of my book studies. But it is not “proof”. I still do not present it as “proof”, only as an example of why I lean in the direction that I do, as far as the flesh and blood reality of this entity.

    So to come on here and claim that sasquatch can’t be photographed because he shifts to another dimension, and to provide no more “proof” than, “I read it in a book,” well… don’t be surprised when those out slogging through the swamps, feet to the ground, aren’t willing to accept that simply because someone wrote it in a book. Even those who are armchair researchers should rightly demand more.

    I have no problem with your seeking a unified theory of paranormal phenomenon. In fact I encourage it. But Cryptomundo is not the forum for that if you are sensitive to challenges (in fact, I’m not sure there is a forum for the thin skinned in any field, with the exception of exclusive faith based groups).

    Extra-dimensional explanations may seem elementary and obvious to you in your eyes as “the beholder”, but the rest of us require more substantial proof than either your faith, or my odd footprint find.

  41. norman-uk responds:

    I notice most of kd37354’s letter is made up of personal attacks on Mrs Coy/Carter and lesser mention of why Mrs Carters stories about bigfoot may be wrong, or it seems so.This was followed by some rather strong remarks about Mrs C personaly and about lack of (her?) scientific rigour and some defence of Mrs C. one of which in some respects went over the top.

    My feeling is that a much cooler approach is called for dwelling more on the real issues than what kd3754s clearly one sided attack on Mrs C. her sister and by default her children. Should Mrs C. now come back and defend her personal life in this forum and therebye defend or legitimise her assertions about contact with bigfoot? I think not.

    I dont think this is what cryptozoology is or should be about or important enough for us to get nasty about and as in life, science should be a tool not a tyrant.

    Now cant we all kiss and make?

  42. cmgrace responds:

    DWA, you continue to be one of my favorite posters. I cannot agree more with your post. In fact, I have nothing better to add so I will leave it at that.

    On the inter-dimensional aspect of this discussion, maybe I’m not smart enough to understand all the different theories of dimension, but I just can’t accept it. I have always thought BF to be an animal. Now I will admit that I am an “armchair” investigator, but I have not read or seen anything to suggest otherwise. If someone could point me in the right direction, I will happily read the material. But until then, I remain “small-minded” when it comes to this theory.

  43. norman-uk responds:

    last word should be ”up”

  44. John Cartwright responds:

    I agree completely with Hugeliberal. The personal attacks on Ms. Carter, her children and her sister by this alleged neighbor were disgusting and have nothing to do with the Bigfoot phenomenon. That said, these habituation stories are malarkey.

  45. swnoel responds:

    Certainly has been a boring spring… thasks for the entertainment!

    I’ll start believing when I see one in focus up close photo.

    If it does show up, it won’t be from any BF researcher.

  46. mystery_man responds:

    Whoa, hold on here for a minute.

    Extradimensional beings? Phasing in and out of the 4th dimension? Am I the only one who thinks that perhaps we are getting way ahead of ourselves here? These might turn out someday to be legitimate scientific pursuits, but for now they only serve the purpose of again distracting us from the core issue here, and that is whether there is anything sort of creature visiting the Carter farm in the first place. It might be helpful to focus here for a moment. Rampant conjecture is getting us no closer to determining this one simple thing, and I think we are adding uneccesary complications to the equation here.

    Photoexpert made a very valid point. Even if these things are some sort of interdimensional entities, when they are in our universe, they would be subject to our physics and natural laws. This means they can be photographed, and they can leave behind physical evidence. Photos, tissue samples, compelling tracks, corroborative sightings, anything at all to show us that this is all more than one family’s fantasy should be able to help us more fully determine whether anything is happening at the farm (which is I assume in our own universe) in the first place, totally regardless of where the creatures came from.

    So first I think it would need to be ascertained whether there is anything unusual going on on the Carter property at all, then we can start trying to determine whether they are flesh and blood creatures, interdimensional creatures, or visitors from Mars, or whatever other nifty ideas people can think up. I think by jumping straight to that, we are derailing from what is the most fundamental question here, and that is “Is there anything there at all?”.

    If there is, it would help to give us something to make that call. I treat this field as an extension of biology and zoology. In that sense, the ones vehemently opposing criticism have to understand that even in the more mainstream biological sciences, researchers have to show why their hypotheses hold water.

    For example, look at even studies on known animals. If for instance, a chimpanzee researcher finds out a new behavior, “They use tools!” (I know this is known, bear with me, this is an example) how do you think they treat that finding? Do they insist it is true without any evidence and then whine or become aggresive when others question it? No. No they do not. They go out and document this new behavior to the best of their ability so that other scientists can see for themselves what is going on and offer peer review. Why do they do this? Because they are interested in actually adding to our knowledge of how these animals bahave. Peer review is very important for this because if there is some mistake or oversight in the original researcher’s data, someone else may be able to catch that and rectify it, which only brings us closer to what is really going on. Even the researchers themselves will question their own findings and look for other possibilities. In the end, we can be sure within a fairly reasonable degree that whatever is left after everyone has looked at it and corroborated it is a close proximity of what is really going on.

    I haven’t seen anything of this sort done to any appreciable degree with regards to the Carter farm. Instead we get name calling, evasiveness, and proposals of new theories that do nothing but divert our attention from the basic facts.

    Are Bigfoot interdimensional beings? I don’t know.

    Think about that response. I don’t know. Absolutely I doubt it because nothing has remotely given me cause to think that, but I admit I don’t know for sure. I think that the fact I can say that is telling in recognizing where the divergence from scienitific thinking lies here. Good scientists often avoid absolute terms when dealing with complete unknowns. Even when highly skeptical, they will say things such as “It’s unlikely because…,” “Or it’s probably…..,” and so on. In the end we need evidence to show us what is real, and that is indicative of a desire to really sift out what is real and what is mere speculation. “It is REAL! Why can’t you see that?!” is not a scientific approach by any means. Evidence is the arbiter by which we decide what is likely and what isn’t. We simply can’t believe and accept as fact every single notion because it might be true.

    It never ceases to amaze me how some can talk about the unknown and how we can’t possible know what is going on, and yet then turn around and explain exactly how it works without any evidence to really lead anyone to think that is the case. Scientists can’t accept things because they are neat or nifty ideas. They do not have that luxury because most of them really want to know how things work rather than how they think they should work.

    What is going on at the Carter farm? I’ll say it, I don’t know. But I think by doubting and asking for more to go on, I’m trying to make a more scietifically honest attempt to get to the truth than those who say they do know that Bigfoot are there, or that there are extradimensional beings or some such visiting the property without showing anything along those lines. I’d like to determine that in an acceptable way that leads me to the truth if that is quite alright with the “true believers.”

    For starters, how about we try to figure out if anything is happening at the farm at all before theorizing what the nature of these at this point hypothetical creatures is? Right now I see nothing for us to suppose anything is happening at all, let alone extradimensional beings.

    This is nothing against the Carters. I have no wish to ridicule them. I just happen to value objective evidence before believing what i hear.

  47. mystery_man responds:

    Photoexpert- I’d even be willing to go one further than you and say that with our current technology we can even photograph things that aren’t visible to the human eye. We are able to record things that fall out of our visible spectrum.

    Perhaps someone should take a good FLIR camera out there and try to photograph something. These things can pick up incredibly minute changes in temperature. I would suspect that an interdimensional traveler would not be the precise ambient temperature of our dimensional habitat. If someone could capture an unusual temperature reading that could not be ruled out as something more mundane, I would consider that to be fairly compelling.

    So there’s no excuse even if someone wanted to make the claim that they are invisible to (normal) cameras or to the human eye, or some such. Of course there will probably be the point made that they somehow sense the cameras which is quite convenient for avoiding evidence. However, we do have technology that could hypothetically photograph something invisible to our eyes or to conventional cameras.

    One more thing I wanted to add is that footprints and physical samples should be obtainable if they are there to be obtained. Obviously the alleged creatures display some tangible physicality in order to recieve garlic and to then use that garlic to protect from creatures that feed on biological material. I understand it was used to repel mosquitos (other parasites?), which most people are aware seek blood and biological tissue. Blood comes from something in a physical form that can leave footprints and other phyisical evidence. If the creatures are there in regular close proximity to humans, this should be obtainable somehow.

    Come to think of it, I wonder how much use a mosquito on this planet or in this dimension would have for the blood of an alien or extradimensional being? That mosquitos would bother such creatures vastly different from anything in this world that they normally draw from seems like a fairly odd notion to me.

  48. Fhqwhgads responds:

    Interdimensional theory or Multidimensional theory is a possibility. However, anything morphing into our dimension, even under this theory, would have to obey all of the laws of physics, within this dimension, at the time the subject is within the confines of this dimension.

    Nice to see another physicist here, PhotoExpert! I’m in computational statistical mechanics myself, which has absolutely no relevance to any of these discussions.

    However, I have to disagree slightly with your post.

    First, if there are Bigfoots popping into and out of our spacetime like A.Sphere did in Flatland, they are clearly obeying rules beyond our physics. Nothing we see on earth, in astronomy, or in subatomic particles acts like this — no, not even virtual particles.

    What’s being done here is merely to use “dimension” the same way “magnetism” has been used in the past, particularly by spiritualists (the people holding séances). It’s a sciencey way of dressing up what is a patently non-scientific idea — an idea that is too complicated to be a hypothesis and too lacking in support to be a theory.

    Your really important point is that, whatever rules may govern the existence of Bigfoot, the light he reflects must follow the same laws of physics as the light reflected off, say, a tree.

    However, this could be circumvented by saying that Bigfoot is some sort of spirit, not an animal at all, and that he directly impresses his presence onto our consciousness, not indirectly reflecting light into our retinas. Ta-da, no need for physical evidence! But it is hard to reconcile this with the fact that the people who most believe they have really seen Bigfoot also often believe that he leaves physical evidence — footprints, hair, twisted branches, whatever.

  49. Andrew Minnesota responds:

    I had stuff to say, but thanks to some fantastic comments I don’t really have any new stones to turn :) Jeremy_Wells, PhotoExpert, Mystery_Man, and DWA (as well as others) have given really great, and sensible response, well done.

    Loren I have no doubt you have better things to do than fabricate an e-mail.

  50. scrambeledeggman responds:

    Wow, I just read all the comments. I still find thing some things of interest.

    First of all, as has been reported, many “legitimate” Bigfoot researchers find truth in the Carter story. It seems that when folks do the research on this story, they seemed to be convinced.

    I find this interesting.

    Why is this? Why do folks like Dr. Igor Bourtsev and Mr. Dmitri Bayonov “believe” this story? Have they fallen under the spell of Janice somehow, or have they actually found things that have convinced them that a Bigfoot is visiting this property? I don’t know. Just because the various researchers have not decided to share their “proof” with the posters of the comments in this blog does not mean that they haven’t found proof. They obviously found something that has convinced them this story is true.

    I love the comment by Bill N. “Is there proof of the bigfoot peoples living on her farm at one time? Well, yes there is. BUT, is it shared with the general bigfoot community? NO it is not (for the obvious reasons).”

    Why would Bill N say something like this? What “obvious reasons” is he talking about? Could the “obvious reasons” be that self proclaimed Bigfoot “researchers” don’t like this story one bit and don’t believe it for a second?

    Hmmm, let’s take score and find out…

    Quakerhead responds: “I thought that it had to be a joke or the product of a delusional mind.”

    mystery_man responds: “However, the whole Carter farm story has always made me a little.. well.. skeptical.”

    greywolf responds: “When the story first came to light I thought it was fiction that the author and publisher forgot to label as fiction.”

    JMonkey responds: “this story seemed ridiculous”

    WOLVES-TALON responds: “all I can realistically say is she is certifiably and with all due respect, CRAZY.”

    PhotoExpert responds: “I am not buying any of the trailer encounter stories! I do buy kd37354’s stories though. This poster seems very credible.”

    rsswope responds: “Since I first heard of the story years ago, I felt there was some mental illness involved with the supposed eyewitnesses.”

    Jeremy_Wells responds: “I’ve generally thought the individuals involved were delusional at best (or deceitful at worst), ”

    My second favorite quote is from Jeremy_Wells.. “Color me thick, Bill E./N., but what are the “obvious reasons” for not sharing clear evidence with a group of open-minded researchers”

    Open minded? Do the above statements sound like they come from people with an open mind?

    Lastly, I just have to comment about a statement from kd37354 “But if one of your neighbors said they had a family of these creatures coming around, and if your property literally connected with theirs, would you have to have a book to know it was not true?”

    My only response to that would be…If a Bigfoot family lived in an area and all the neighbors knew about it, then Bigfoot would not be such a mysterious phenomenon now would it?

    Anyway folks, keep up the leg work on this story, as there is obviously something there… Truth or lies, we just don’t know, but keep diggin!

  51. grandmamoses responds:

    Mystery man states: “Photoexpert made a very valid point. Even if these things are some sort of interdimensional entities, when they are in our universe, they would be subject to our physics and natural laws. This means they can be photographed, and they can leave behind physical evidence.”

    Actually, mystery man is guessing, as is Photoexpert. Neither appear to have the qualifications to proclaim that everything in our universe is subject to our physics and our natural laws. From my own personal field observations, GRAVITY does not apply to creatures in the higher dimensions to the same degree that it applies to the poor souls stuck in man’s dimension. Once you take gravity away, then you have tracks that start and tracks that end. Mmmmm! Now where have I heard of that mystery before? Why of course it is one of the great unexplained Bigfoot mysteries. As Jeremy Wells also tells a story of finding a single track, he failed to observe that the single track both started and ended in the same place. There were no other tracks. So he failed to be sufficiently observant to take notice of this important detail. The point here is that persons who are used to studying flesh and blood animals, only look for evidence of a flesh and blood animal. They either block out all other evidence and conclusions, or in their infinite wisdom they PROCLAIM that other possible conclusions do not obey the laws of physics and therefore are not valid.

    Also from my own personal field observations, other creatures can make considerable amount of noise while being within arms reach, and still be completely invisible and thus cannot be photographed with ordinary cameras. Thermal cameras are likely to be able to photograph invisible creatures, when the heat that they give off falls within the perception range of that camera. We cannot see invisible creatures because the light that they give off does not fall within the sensitivity range of our optical system. It is as simple as that. Just because we cannot see it, does not mean that it does not exist. Orbs can be readily photographed for instance, yet most people have difficulty seeing them with their naked eyes. The Bigfoot on Carter’s old farm that she sold and moved away from, likely had the ability to be invisible anytime that they so chose, if they were anything like the Bigfoot around my parts. Invisibility on demand makes for some pretty compelling evidence that there were no Bigfoot at Carter’s old farm.

    And just in case nobody noticed lately, all the great Bigfoot evidence and researchers are one by one being lethally attacked, in order to discredit them for all time. MK Davis most recently attempted to discredit half of the greatest names in Bigfoot research in one fell swoop, but most failed to notice since his interview was on an unpopular blogtalk show. Here we similarly have an anonymous poster, who has completely failed to prove their own qualifications on the subject matter, or timestamp their assertations, and those that are eager to discredit a fellow researcher jump at the opportunity to accept what this Mr. X says without question. That is bogus science from the get go.

  52. wuffing responds:

    PhotoExpert – a comment on your interesting post. You wrote “As my screen name implies, I am an expert in optical physics. I can go on and on about Wave Theory, Partical Theory, Quantum Theory, String Theory, etc. But I would not want to bore the layman with technical jibberish.”
    Thank you for classifying us as “laymen” – we certainly wouldn’t recognise jibberish if it jumped off the page at us, and “Partical Theory” is way over our heads.

    One thing is for certain though, if we see it with our eyes, we are able to photograph it,
    This is almost true, but not in the sense I think you meant it. “Seeing” is done in the brain, which processes the electrical signals generated by the eye, but the brain can also interpret other electrical signals NOT originating in the eye in the same way. Its called an hallucination. Wikipedia explains it like this:
    “A hallucination, in the broadest sense, is a perception in the absence of a stimulus. In a stricter sense, hallucinations are defined as perceptions in a conscious and awake state in the absence of external stimuli which have qualities of real perception, in that they are vivid, substantial, and located in external objective space.”

    So you can’t always photograph what you see.

  53. Ragnar responds:

    Has anyone got a good location for the farm? I think it would be interesting if we could find it on Google maps and see if it really has just a trailer or two and a couple of acres.

  54. mystery_man responds:

    Grandmamoses- Yes I’m guessing, but I’ve already admitted I don’t know for sure about what is going on.

    Are you saying that you are not guessing at all? I don’t think anyone is necessarily qualified when dealing with something that we know so little about (extra dimensional beings and invisibility on demand), outside of theorizing, except you apparently. Why, you seem to know everything there is to know about them right down to all of the processes involved and how they work.

    That’s great for you. Please forgive us lowly people who actually have yet to learn the intricacies of inter dimensional travel and invisibility.

    The rest of us have to resort to learning how these things work the old fashioned way, by learning through proper scientific processes what is really going on rather than making it up as we go along. I have to rely on evidence which has yet to be produced except for fancy physics hypotheses that most people, even physicists I might add (except maybe you apparently) don’t necessarily know a whole lot about.

    You seem to be very quick to jump on those that have their doubts, and to criticize those who think they know everything, yet the only one claiming that they do is you and the Carter farm supporters.

    What you are doing is bending untested and unknown hypothetical physics to conform to your view of how things should work and twisting these things to serve as “evidence” that you are right. That is bogus science. I’ve said I don’t know, and I wouldn’t know until I had evidence which is a completely acceptable thing to do in the real world.

    No, invisibility on demand is NOT evidence if you cannot show whatsoever that it is in fact happening to others who can corroborate that. Maybe it is happening but I have no way of knowing that anymore than I can know that there isn’t an invisible dragon living in my backyard. You hide behind it could be this or could be that without accepting the could bes that you don’t like or don’t fit into your preconceived notions. THAT is bogus science.

    I entertain the notion that these things could happen, but I think we would have to know more about them before making that call one way or the other. I don’t know what’s going on. Maybe it is inter-dimensional beings, but I would need more to make that assumption. I’m fairly sure they would be photographable, but maybe I’m wrong. At least I can say that, whereas you make no possibility at all that you could ever be wrong. In this way, I suspect that I really want to find out the real truth more than you, who have already made up your mind.

    Bogus science? I’m not sure I really know how to respond to that. Why should we jump at the chance to believe the Carters? Believing you at your word without any evidence at all to back it up sounds like pretty bogus science to me. This isn’t a playground match of “Is not!” “Is too!” This is meant to be a serious forum for trying to get to the bottom of these things in what I hope would be a scientific way. Nothing you have said has indicated to me that this is the way you treat this subject matter.

    I haven’t ridiculed anyone. I have merely stated my skepticism which is a natural part of science. I have expressed doubts in an unproven hypothesis, which is a perfectly rational part of science. I must say I am starting to doubt your own knowledge of just how science works.

    And what is the mention of MK Davis and the “lethal attacks” on all Bigfoot researchers? Where did that red herring come from? I am seriously curious about what that has to do with the matter at hand or why you decided to make that particular accusation except maybe to be evasive.

    I am serious about cryptozoology, and I am not some anonymous poster here as I’m sure many here could tell you. I take this subject very seriously and try to contribute what I can. Now normally I am quite temperate, but your offensive accusations of me trying to discredit people while simultaneously trying to discredit me and pouncing on me have gone beyond the pale. I have done no such thing.

    You are issuing close mindedness of your own brand disguised as open mindedness which is one of the worst kinds in my opinion.

    scrambledeggman- If you think I’m close minded about this, then you are not reading my posts very carefully. I merely don’t feel that we should take this at face value at this point. You have taken what I said and presented it out of context.

    Of course I’m skeptical, there has been not a shred of evidence. This is how it works in the scientific world. Anybody at all should rightfully be skeptical of these events under the current circumstances, and if those researchers that are so convinced have any sort of scientific qualifications at all, then that means they have seen something that we haven’t and all they have to do is make that available for others to see. Simple really.

    I have no problem with this being inter dimensional beings if that is what they are. But why on earth is anyone to be considered close minded for requesting evidence? Am I close minded for not accepting the tooth fairy? What is being directed towards me is a perversion of how science operates.

    Talk about bogus science. This thread is starting to become redolent of it.

  55. vampchick21 responds:

    grandmamoses, invisible creatures? Could you provide a list of these invisible creatures?

    Also, orbs. Orbs are, for the most part, dust or moisture particles reflecting the light, occassionally an insect. My main area of research and interest is in the Paranormal (as in, ghosts, hauntings, poltergeists, etc). You really can’t use orbs to prove your point, since the majority of serious Paranormal Researchers agree that orbs are not spirits nor proof of spirit activity.

    I’m also not quite buying this whole interdimensional being theory. Because even then, you would have to provide some solid proof to back it up (hence the term theory as opposed to fact).

    And who exactly is/has been under attack and facing attempts to discredit? The first I heard of it was in your post. You might want to back up that statement as well.

  56. DWA responds:

    I agree, m_m. Some enlightened commentary on here, but some, er, pretty thick air too.

    Well, come on over my place. I’m having pancakes; gonna set a few out with a game cam. Gonna habituate me some flesh’n’blood. 😀

  57. DWA responds:

    cmgrace: thanks for the kind words, and no need to paint yourself as “small-minded” here.

    Like you, I think it’s a critter we’re looking for here. I’m so sure of it that, until that avenue has been explored to my satisfaction, I WON’T consder something that I see less likely based on life experience and what I know about known animals, absent compelling evidence that I should. (So see? You’re more open-minded than me. 😉 ) The accounts read like animal encounters. Encounters, in fact, with apes. Too many people who almost assuredly haven’t seen an ape outside a zoo otherwise are describing not only ape appearance, but ape behavior. The evidence says, copiously and in big letters: CRITTER. PROBABLY APE. And folks who entertain otherwise aren’t showing any acquaintance with the evidence, which is markedly bereft of shape shifting, saucer riding, orbing and take-me-to-your-leader.

    Wanting to go the critter route first isn’t small-minded. It embodies the culling essential to proper scientific endeavor. Our species’ experience of the physical plane says…well, that saying about walking like a duck and looking like a duck and quacking like a duck seems to be constantly borne out by experience. When it’s not, the explanation leaves no doubt that we have the exception that proves the rule, rather than a new rule.

    So. Let’s look for a duck.

    Right. You know what I mean. 😉

  58. Jeremy_Wells responds:

    The single track I refer to was on a hillock of pine needles in the middle of a soupy swamp. It was the one place a clear track could be placed and not filled in with sediment or just invisible under coffee colored water.
    I also never claimed that was “proof”. Just compelling circumstantial evidence.
    The skepticism about the Carter farm doesn’t come from my initial viewing of it, but from continued distractions apparent in these threads and the “we have hairs/we don’t have hairs we will show you” flip flops.
    It’s the overall history that has made me come to that conclusion. You will also note all of the individuals you quote have said the personal attacks are rude, but the evidence still doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

  59. DWA responds:

    scrambledeggman: Um, let’s see here.

    In the face of all those awful, unseemly scofitical nonbeliever quotes up there, if I had the proof, what would I do?

    I would, um, sheesh this is hard…wait a minute here…I…would….dang!….um…..


    You know what “the obvious reason” for that “obvious reason” statment is? Well, all those awful unseemly scoftics up there know it, and so do I, and you know how we know it? Our experience. Every single bingle gingle zingle time we hear oh, yeah, I have the proof, but I’m not sharing it, what happens? People keep laughing, and the episode fizzles. They try to get folks to kowtow to them, and folks say: um, just call me when you show the proof.

    If I were the one being laughed at, you’d see what I had. Then, you’d stop laughing.

    Or, you’d never hear anything from me about my experience in the very first place, because I had my proof, and, well, good luck to you in getting yours.

    People that run this scam don’t understand that we see they’re putting the cart before the horse. It’s not them we’re laughing at, or their alleged proof. It’s this same ol’ shell game, one more time.

    See, when scientists have proof, you don’t see it until it’s packaged and ready for presentation. They don’t tease; the truth is what they’re interested in, and sure some notoriety or recognition too, which they know damn well doesn’t come until the proof is in the bag. The paper is in the journals, nicely tied up with the corroborating evidence. And here are the photos and video, and the diagrams to show how we connected the dots.

    Because that is how people who have the proof show you.

    Like jeremy_wells, I had my own track find, in the California Siskiyou in 1986. The light was so dim that a photo with my equipment was out of the question. But they were tracks. At least I never saw anything in my life that looked so much like tracks that wasn’t tracks. Couldn’t make out toes or other detail. But they had a hominid shape to them; they were impressed about a quarter-inch deep in pine duff we couldn’t dent with lug soles and heavy packs; and if they were tracks, well, only one thing I’ve heard of could have made them.

    So. Who would the lousy photos have gone to? In 1986? I knew the USFS was a waste of time. BFRO was a year old, and I’d never heard of ’em.

    But you know? I could be wrong in that assessment. I mean, I could be. I couldn’t call it proof. My wife, to this day, says, oh yeah, they were bigfoot tracks. Me? Well if you read me here, you know I don’t have my proof yet. It’ s just one more thing that seems not to be accounted for in full by North American faunal models. To me. And definitely to my wife. To you? Well, you just got one person’s story. One more thing.

    And it’s one more thing than I see here. And these folks want their names up in lights.

    Inclined to be kind, I’d refer our friends to my post above and tell them, it may be real to you, but the rest of us, not seeing it, need evidence. Don’t say a thing about you.

    Just saying.

    If you don’t have the goods don’t hang out the shingle.

  60. scrambeledeggman responds:

    I still stand my my comment that as far as the Carter Farm incident is concerned, the Bigfoot community is closed minded about this story.

    However, since I would like to actually contribute to knowledge of this report (Instead of just calling Janice “Crazy”), I submit to you what I think is the remains of the Carter Farm. (based on kd37354 description of a dilapidated property) If this is the actual property, I can see why kd37354 is pissed. I would not want that crap pile on my street either.

    Google Maps Image.

    Anyway, if you zoom out, you can see there is lots of forested area to the east. Plenty of cover…. Also, no comment on the Sasquatch looking dude in the picture… He looks like a scary one to me!

    kd37354, is this the Carter Farm?

  61. Andrew Minnesota responds:

    m_m, DWA and Jeremy_Wells thank you for keeping up the sensible comments. scrambeledeggman if you’ve ever taken a basic research course in college you’d understand the need for evidence. You’re entitled to believe whatever you would like but it is not harsh of someone to want evidence before they are willing to believe such claims.

    Many of the comments here are from individuals that are very open minded, but you must understand that the carter claims are rather grand, and somewhat more difficult to believe than saying you are open to the creature simply existing. This is where the demand of evidence comes in if they have it show it to us. Legitimate researchers do not withhold evidence especially when it can be used to back up their claims. It makes no sense that researchers would have evidence, say that the stories are true but withhold the evidence, it simply doesn’t make sense. You seem to think they wouldn’t present evidence because it would be ridiculed by others who, but if it is genuine and convincing it should be able to withstand scientific scrutiny and prove their findings.

    vampchick21 thank you for responding to the orb comment, am of the same mind on it. grandamamoses I am curious as to what credentials you have; physics degrees and such. Anything that lets us know that you are truly knowledgeable on such things. You have called into question others credentials and I am curious as to yours.

  62. GCPickle responds:

    ” The house is in a state of disrepair, and there are now two rusted trailers, as well as a small barn that is falling apart, and garbage, rusted and junked cars, and poor starving animals, many that are on chains, and we can hear them being beaten and abused. ”

    My question is: Why are you sitting at the computer, putting people down, when you should be calling your local humane society and reporting said abuse?

  63. DWA responds:

    Andrew Minnesota: saying thanks allows me to make yet another comment. HATE it when that happens.

    I said in my last post: “See, when scientists have proof, you don’t see it until it’s packaged and ready for presentation.”

    That’s totally wrong.

    You don’t see it. Sure. But you also don’t hear about it. You don’t smell it; you don’t sense it; YOU DON’T EVEN KNOW THEY’RE WORKING ON IT until they roll it out. No biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig drum roll while the magician rolls up his sleeve. No “we will shock the world.” No “we may be hicks, but we done got us a Bigfeet!”

    NOTHING. Until: hi, we’d like to show you something, and everybody goes WHOOOAAAAA. They even have the artists’ conceptions done, man! Those damn scientists do it to me so often I am flat getting SICK of it. Stop it, dude, I have a HEART here! I’m trying to make it to old age! Stop sneaking up on me like that!

    This has sort of become my thing, and probably many of our thing. My litmus test for whether you have proof is: do I see the proof, now?

    We’ve gotten used to the “we have proof!” schtick, and know what it means.

    And it’s not: we have it!

    It’s: we’re MILKING it for all it’s worth.

    If crypto is going to become a science (and I know the Carters aren’t zoologists, but still), cryptos have to present their info the way scientists do.

    Gather the evidence. Draw the conclusion.

    Then say hi, we’d like to show you something. Then SHOW us.

  64. scrambeledeggman responds:


    Yes, I believe in evidence. People said “Where is the evidence”. Well, the book presents lots of evidence. The book that we are all talking about, “50 years with Bigfoot: Tennessee Chronicles of Co-Existance” presents much evidence. Evidence presented included 2 blurry blobsquatch pictures, footprint casts, lots of poop, tree breakings, tree limbs stacked in teepee formation, a book full of alleged Bigfoot words, and a CD with Janice pronouncing over 200 of these alleged Bigfoot words.

    This is the evidence that is presented in the book. Somehow, all this evidence has been ignored, or poo-pooed for some reason or another. I am not sure when or how this happened, but obviously it did, as nobody seems to be mentioning this evidence. Does anyone have the history of how all these pieces of evidence got debunked, as I would like to know.

    In conclusion, I am just saying lets keep this story open and not be too hasty in closing the door on it as is what seems to be happening on this blog.

    Is this really too much to ask?

  65. mystery_man responds:

    grandmamoses- I actually think I owe you an apology. I realize now that perhaps I misread your post. I thought you were talking about me when it seems you were talking about this mystery mail directed at the Carters. Sometimes in this type of forum it is hard to discern who people are directing their comments at and since you opened with me, I made that erroneous connection at the end of your post. I can see that I was not the anonymous poster you were referring too, but rather the subject of this thread.

    I made a mistake and I overreacted. I sincerely apologize for that. That was not conducive to the discussion on my part.

  66. PhotoExpert responds:

    Wow! This is really getting interesting now. I appreciate the responses by all. And I will comment back on a few of them, but where do I start? Do I start with the positive or negative responses? I think I’ll start off with the positive comments since I am an optimistic person.

    Mystery_man–You are always logical in your thought process and as you already know, I am a fan of your posts. I thought about talking about photographing things that we can not see as well. But if I did that, I would have to explain to the paranormal believers why water particles and dust are not true “orbs”. I did not want to open that can of worms since the paranormal camp is having difficulty in understanding why we can actually photograph things we see in our dimension. I did not want to go there! LOL But like minds think alike. I thought about it and you took it a step further. You made all valid points. Nice job! (As always)

    Fhqwhgads–Nice to meet you! Ah, do not worry, if you stay at this blog long enough, there will be a need for a physicist with a background in computational statistical mechanics. Just be patient and your skills will be needed. Trust me, something will come up related to your field and you will have your chance. We will need your services! I understand what you are trying to say about the argument by the paranormal camp, them saying BF is a spiritual being and it imposes it’s image in our brain, etc. I get that attempt to circumvent the logical argument of facts and physics. But I can come right back and defeat that argument by saying, If one buys into that premise of the paranormal camp, if BF were a spiritual being that imposed it’s image in their brain, how did they hand garlic to an impression on the brain? Wouldn’t the garlic just fall to the ground as you handed it to the spiritual BF you perceived being there? Wouldn’t the garlic be there the next day and so actually, the spiritual BF never took the garlic in the first place? It is one or the other! They can not have it both ways. Thus, it refutes their argument and to some extent, along with their premise for the argument. They can not have it both ways! It is a mutually exclusive argument based on the stories coming from Carter.

    Andrew Minnesota–You did add to the thread! You let the readers here at Cryptomundo, that you were in agreement with other posters here. You posted as a sign of support. Your post was appreciated!

    And now to address and correct the not so positive comments or negatively implied posts:

    scrambeledeggman–LOL Are you implying that the reply posts to Bill N or Bill E’s post, is why people are not forthcoming with evidence? Are you implying that this is the obvious reason that the evidence is not shared? LOL You have got to be kidding me! I’ll address the elephant in the room, even if others do not. First of all, my post was not off the cuff. I have read the book and followed the stories and have followed BF sightings for decades. So I am not emotionally responding to Bill N’s post. I made my response based on carefully weighed evidence or in this case, “lack of evidence” on the Carter story. I believe mystery_man and others already pointed those facts out to you. You need to read more carefully. Actually, I believe in BF. I believe that BF is a real cryptid beast. I also am open to possibilities that BF may be in the paranormal or multidimensional realm although that is highly improbable, based on the evidence to date. However, it is only a possibility because there is no overwhelming evidence for that case. There is little to no evidence for that case to be made, as of yet. But I leave open that possibility. There is a case that BF is a real flesh and blood creature. The evidence points to that. However, because of that multitude of evidence, I am not going to buy into the multidimensional aspect of BF or the spiritual or paranormal aspect of BF because there is no evidence there. There are people with psychological and mental disorders who do see things that others can not. There is mass hysteria and sightings of things under mass hysteria. There is never any physical evidence for these sightings either. Thus, delusional people who see things that are not there, or make things up in their mind and convince themselves that these sightings were real events, falls into the same category for me and others as the explanation for BF being a spiritual or multidimensional creature. The proof is not there! There is no evidence to little evidence to make the Carter story feasible in my opinion and in the opinion of so many others. Is BF a real flesh and blood creature? Not only is that possible but it is highly probable! Is BF a spiritual creature or multidimensional creature? Yes, I am open to that possibility, however, it is not probable! So you see, I am open minded. But I am also sane and logical. The Carter story requires more investigation and certainly a lot more proof, any proof! There is none! And when you ask to see it or for posters such as Bill N to supply it, none is forthcoming. What you do get is the canned answer, “It is not forthcoming for obvious reasons”. Well, for people in the Carter camp or paranormal/spiritual camp, the obvious reason is that their evidence would be easily refuted and not hold up to scrutiny. This is the same reason people do not believe the story in the scientific camps, for obvious reasons, the Carter camp has no evidence or proof to present because the story is fabricated or imagined or a delusion. Look, I am open minded but I am also an objective realist. If you have proof and it is good proof, present it, sir! If not, then “your belief in a story” is just that, a belief. Beliefs are just that. They are what a person deems to be true but the facts might not manifest those beliefs to be fact. And all the other posters you mentioned in your post, the majority of them are not believing the Carter story. I, they, never said one ill word towards the Carters. We hold nothing against the story, except no evidence was presented. If you go back and read my first response to the letter that the neighbor sent in, you will see that I said that the neighbor talked condescendingly about the Carter family. I felt that was unnecessary and irrelevant to the case. The only relevence it did hold, which would be allowed in a court of law, is that the history of the Carters as described by the neighbor, shows their character. Even judges and courts of law, allow the character of witnesses to come into questiona and that is considered part of objective evidence. We must take into account, the character of the primary witness in this case of BF, and that is Carter herself. Therefore, the letter and characterization of Carter, by the neighbor, is relevant in this case. I personally would not have taken such digs at the Carter family, but it was deemed necessary by the neighbor and would have been allowable in a court of law. So case closed for me as well as the other posters you mentioned by name in your post. Consider the readers here the jury. We heard all the evidence presented and our opinions were what they were. Our conclusion was not based on “feelings” or “how we felt”. Our conclusion was based on facts, witnesses, credibility of those witnesses, and any evidence presented such as tracks, hair samples, photographs. There was little to no evidence to support Carter’s claims. Oh, except for “evidence is being withheld for obvious reasons”. LOL Seriously, if this were a murder trial and the evidence could set the alleged killer free, do you think any jury would buy the claim that they have evidence to present of behalf of the Defendant but that same evidence might convict him, so it is not being presented? LOL We weighed the facts and the jury made it’s decision. Now don’t try to group us all in the same boat as a bunch of closed minded individuals. That is not the case and would be untrue. That is what you implied in your post. As an objective observer, I am insulted by that. Don’t go around throwing insults here without the facts to back them up. You have been corrected!

    wuffing–You need to read a bit more carefully before posting. I stated in my post, I do not wish to bore the layman. If you are a layman, you might have been bored by my posting things over your head. No offense should be taken in that statement. But if we take the converse of that statement, my intention was not to insult the experts but merely, not talk over the heads of people that may not have an advanced grasp of physics. No insult was intended. If you truly have a grasp of physics, you would not have been insulted by my statement. Learn to read more carefully! I did not write, for all the layman here, other than PhotoExpert… I think people like DWA, mystery_man, and Loren got the essence of my statement. It would only have been offensive to those people who do not read carefully. However, when you are posting at a public forum like Cryptomundo, there are housewives, children, creative people who lack technical knowledge, etc. That is not a deficiency on anyone’s part. Heck, if I was at an artist’s forum, I would be the layman and I would not want experts talking over my head about the subtleties of oil paint versus acrylic paint. That would be over my head. I am an intelligent person, but that would be over my head and bore me to death or to another forum. I was being civil minded and sociable in doing that. But if you like, we can discuss in detail the effects of constructive antinodal interference as it pertains to Wave Theory and bore the crap out of the people here, just to appease your ego! Brother! I will waste no more time on explaining what is obvious and appreciated by most posters here. But I will move on to your next point, which I am partially in agreement with. We can not photograph hallucinations. And that is exactly my point. If an entity manifests itself in our “physical realm”, which is what I was talking about if you read my post more carefully, then we can photograph. Mental images, hallucinations, etc, are in the psychological and mental realm and therefore can not be photographed. And what you stated, is exactly what I was implying. You got it! Congratulations! We agree! So if the sighting at the Carter trailer could not be photographed, then what was it? Maybe what you just implied! Wuffing, you need to take the “wuff” out of your comments. Then again, it is your screen name.

    Grandmamoses–In case you haven’t noticed, we are all here at a Cryto site and that means we are all a little open to possibilities. If I claimed to know everything in the universe, then I would be God or a supreme being. No such claims have been forthcoming. But as a semi-intelligent person, not living in a fantasyland where everything is possible and therefore possible, and being sane, I do know that all objects in our world, have to operate under the same laws of physics and nature. To use your point, let’s say that there is some abnormality that takes place and does not exactly operate under the laws of physics in this dimension. Well, then it would not be unnatural. It would be part of this dimension and therefore acting accordingly under the laws of physics that we need to explain further. So yes, I can say with certainty, that any being, even a spiritual being or paranormal being, would be subject to the constraints or laws governing physics in our world. Sorry, but that is a fact. What you stated is just wishful thinking. Would you be surprised to learn that I am spiritual? Would you be surprised to learn that I believe in Multidimensional possibilities? Sure, it is certainly possible and even probable that more things are taking place than we realize. Sure, BF could be in another dimension and pops in and out of this dimension. That is certainly a possibility. I am reluctant to dismiss that theory which is your theory. But I am also a realist and use the scientific approach. It that theory is to hold true, it or parts of it must be proven. And that proof must come in the way of evidence. And one MUST also consider ALL of the evidence and not just parts or some of the evidence to make their theory hold water. You can’t have it both ways. If you feel BF is a spiritual being, you are entitled to that belief. But to make it true or a fact, you must present proof. And you present little to no proof that can be documented. If BF is a multidimensional being, the same thing applies. Even if we give you the benefit of the doubt and try to support your theory, your own evidence by your own witness does not hold up to scrutiny. If BF were a spiritual being or multidimensional being, explain the garlic being given and taken away by Fox when Carter gave him the garlic. You can’t have it both ways. If that happened, for a period of time, even minutes, Fox was acting in accordance with the physical laws of our dimension and was able to take the garlic from Carter. Both were acting within the laws of physics in our dimension. So Fox could have been photographed in that period of time with clear and sharp images. That did not happen. No proof was forthcoming. That would have been definitive proof. But conveniently, the creature knows what a camera is and morphs at that exact second. Sure it does! It would have been better evidence to make the story sound credible if there was not any evidence supporting it. Wait, that is what happened! LOL So you see my point here! Don’t throw out your theory. It is a good theory. But it is only that. You must document your proof of your theory. And you have not offered one iota, one single piece of “credible” and objective evidence for proof of your theory. I will down you or your theory. But I will not believe what you believe based on no evidence! I am open to your theory because I know it as a possibility to be potentially true. But I find it unbelievable and not true because of lack of evidence. Therefore, although possible, what you claim is highly improbable. Plus, there is evidence to the contrary and multiple sightings, hair samples, tracks, etc, they would refute your theory in it’s entirety. I am leaning that way as are many others here at Cryptomundo. Belief is faith. I will not try to convince you otherwise. But proof and evidence are facts that need to be taken into account, even in your theory. This is what makes theory, fact!

  67. cryptidsrus responds:

    Interesting conversation, to say the least!!!

    While reading all of the comments, I kept thinking—
    “Are we going to start talking trash about people’s MOTHERS next???”

    Next, actually, is—“I know YOU are, but what am I?” :)


    1) I will come out and say I have no idea as to whether the Carter sisters are lying or not. I ultimately “tend” to think (and some people may call my answer a “copout” and “irrelevant to the discussion” but that’s the way it is) that the “truth” may lie somewhere in the middle. There may have been “contact”, but not the way they “described” it. Maybe certain things got “added” in the telling. I don’t know. But this I DO know:

    2) ScottAR got it right near the top of the page when he said
    “I’m not saying we shouldn’t look at these reports with a critical eye, but lets be mindful of our language, so we don’t discourage others from reporting what they have seen.”

    I agree totally to that. Amen, brother.

    3) Continuing on that vein, I also think that injecting slanderous, unsubstantiated comments about people’s marital status, financial situations and legitimacy of children is not only uncalled for, it “lowers the bar” regarding the level of discourse in this site and everywhere. In a way, it would be laughable if it weren’t really so sad.

    The Carter’s stories do have elements that are INDEED suspicious and unprovable—but one can analyze those elements without resorting to name-calling and airing unsubstantiated characterizations that ultimately have nothing to do with the issue at hand. If they’re “not to be trusted,” fine. I tend to agree with that, mostly. But let’s keep it civilized,and not let our feelings get into it as much as possible shall we???

    We’re supposed to be seekers after knowledge through “evidence,” not five-year-olds having a hissy-fit.

    4) On the other hand, I agree Bill N. went WAY over the line when he accused Loren of “fabricating” an email.
    The post may not have been “irrational,” but it was certainly prickly, and (at worst) vicious. I can understand Bill wanting to defend the name of the Carter sisters but accusing Loren of deliberately perpetrating something here without proof simply because he disagrees with Loren’s take on the “fiasco” is wrong. Shame on Bill for that.

    5) I loved most of the comments pro and con here. Everybody made good points.

    Although I must admit GrandmaMoses impressed me particularly. I like the cut of your jib, madam, for what it is worth!!!

    Like I said, I don’t necessarily think the Carters have been totally honest but I liked some of the opinions you gave and your spirited defense of them.

    I tend to agree with your opinion that Ole Hairy is “interdimensional”—what you have to understand is, that belief is usually classified HERE as belonging to the “supernatural” or “non-materialistic” school of thought.

    Some (not everybody here, of course—and I’m not talking about you, Mystery_Man, BTW) seem to think of it strictly in terms of it being a “terrestrial” animal and leave it at that. But the “evidence” so far (anecdotal, traditional and every other way) points to this being a being on our level or more. MY opinion, as always.

    Ultimately, time will tell what’s going on here and what this IS or is NOT. But sometimes (like I keep saying) we need to look outside the box and not label something “supernatural” or “unsicientific” just because it does not quite “fit” current knowledge.

    Ultimately, this is an unproven case unless more evidence comes forward. Another “what if.” Let’s leave it at that.

  68. cryptidsrus responds:

    Ultimately, ScrambledEggMan comes closeset to what I feel.

  69. DWA responds:

    scrambledeggman says:

    “In conclusion, I am just saying lets keep this story open and not be too hasty in closing the door on it as is what seems to be happening on this blog.

    Is this really too much to ask?”

    Going out on a limb to speak for the rest of us I can at least speak for me: I never do close a story. Not until the evidence is all in.

    I think what folks have had reservations about is that the evidence you list in your last post seems highly inconsistent with what anyone would expect from a habituation scenario. Two photos? And both blobsquatches? Everything else you list has been come upon in random encounters – most of such that I have read seeming to provide much more compelling associated evidence than we see here.

    They’re WRITING A BOOK. That’s saying: lookee here!


    At what, precisely?

    Again. For a habituation scenario, I’m expecting to see a lot more than two blobs plus a pile of circumstantial stuff none of which can be conclusively said to be the sign of an animal not confirmed to exist yet.

    In other words, one can break a lot of tree limbs, build a lot of teepees, take a lot (two?) of real blurry pics of buddies in suits, make up a heck of a lot of words, and crap around his farm a whole lot if it will sell his book for him.

    Just sayin’.

  70. Jeremy_Wells responds:

    This is exactly my issue with the whole situation. The so-called “proof” is nothing of the sort. It’s anecdotal and impossible to substantiate.
    You mention “two blurry blobsquatch photos”. I think your characterization of the photos says enough (not to mention that it kinda stumps that whole “they are invisible to cameras” argument.)
    You mention poop. Unless its been tested in a laboratory, and gut cultures were found that are indicative of an unknown primate (something that hasn’t happened to my knowledge), or there are clear photos and/or video of it coming out of a sasquatch, it is, again, not evidence. If we could substantiate that it came from one of these creatures, from either lab tests or photos, we could determine a lot about their diet from examination of stools. But without proof of where it came from, its just a pile of crap (figuratively and literally).
    Tree breaks and teepees have never impressed me much either. People can make teepees. People can use a come-along or wench to snap tree limbs. Other forces can snap limbs. It’s compelling circumstantial evidence in areas where there is other compelling evidence, but it is in no way proof. Now, if you have clear videos and photos of something in an area, accompanied by audio of cracking and snapping, and you then have evidence of these snaps (or other evidence of presence and then teepees), it is again compelling circumstantial evidence than can help us understand the habits of this animal. But again it is not proof of the animal. I’ll concede that it’s interesting, because we see known apes breaking foliage, banging the ground with clubs, etc. This makes such sign something I’d look for in an investigation. But it isn’t proof of the animals existence any more than a dropped twinkie wrapper is proof that I’ve been in an area though my love of the spongey snack cake is well known. It doesn’t disprove or prove anything, because it could have been dropped by another hiker, blown in on the breeze, or floated in on the stream. It’s circumstantial. Sometimes compelling in the presence of other corroborating evidence, but not proof.
    As far as the book of alleged bigfoot words and the CD of them being pronounced. I can’t believe I’m even having to say this, but; its no more proof of the reality of bigfoot than the existence of Klingon to Elvish dictionaries on sale at the Renaissance Faire are proof of the actual existence of Tolkien’s elves or Roddenberry’s Klingons. You want me to believe this is the language bigfoot uses? Show me a video, with a close-up of Fox’s face, while he pronounces the words.
    That is more akin to the kind of proof that is required.
    Chimp researchers didn’t go around telling us they knew chimps used spears until they had the videos of chimps stabbing bush babies in the hollows of trees with them. Orang researchers didn’t go telling us that these vegetarians were emulating fisherman at the waters edge until they had photo evidence of orangutans doing just that.
    It’s really just that simple. Without clear, quantifiable evidence, all you have are blurry photos, piles of crap, and a neat story.

  71. cryptidsrus responds:

    You do make a very good point.

    I think the legitimacy of the claims is more than fair. In fact, the Carters should have known serious scrutiny would accompany their disclosure of their “encouters.” And refusing to answer legitimate questions just adds “fuel to the fire.”

    However, the discussion I think has veered unfortunately to a referendum on whether the Carters are “welfare-using trailer-park trash, therefore they are not to be trusted,” instead of “their claims are unsubstantiated and dubious, therefore they are not to be trusted,” you know what I mean??? 😉

    I understand Loren simply reported what he was emailed. That’s fine. But although I doubt the Carters, I also doubt the “motives” of Kd37354. I think her stake on this goes more on merely “setting the record straight,” at least that was the impression I GOT.

    I don’t know her either—just as I don’t know the Carters. But adding unsubstantiated comments about their lives to an email when it has nothing to do with the whether their claims are true or not casts doubt on one’s motives and truthfulness just as she cast doubt on the Carter’s credibility.
    In your own words—“Just sayin’.” :)

  72. scrambeledeggman responds:


    Thank you for the blobsquatch comment. Yes, if they were trying to get a picture of a Sasquatch during the time Grandpa Carter was feeding Fox (the Sasquatch), and only got a blobsquatch, then yes this would be a bit suspicious.

    However, this is not what happened as you should know, having read the book. You have read the book right?

    Well, let me refresh your memory…As they were writing the book, Mary Green asked Janice to go through old photos to find any evidence of any Sasquatch on the property. Both the pictures of the blobsquatches are from old pictures from the 70s/80’s. One of the picture that shows the blobsquatch in full stride was taken from the Farm House. This Farm House was sold to someone else (possibly to the kd37354 family?) by the time the book was written. Let me repeat that, Janice did not own the Farm House at the time of the book writing. So, for your scenario to take place,(a staged blobsquatch picture) they would have had to 1) go get a suit, 2) have someone pose in the suit and then, 3) somehow get access to the neighbor’s utility room to take this “staged” shot. If these events happened, it should be easy to prove that a suit was bought or rented and that Janice got access to the neighbor house. These are the kind of follow up questions that need to be asked and answered, but since this is a “case closed”, these just won’t be addressed.

    Anyway, this brings up another one of my original points (going back years, to when the Carter Farm was first discussed on Cryptomundo) which is… People are commenting about this story and how it is “fake”, but have never taken time to read the book and really try to deconstruct the events and try to find holes in the logic. I challenge you to find holes in the logic in this book. Seriously, give me the page of the specific example you have found and how the story disconnects and we can discuss those. However if you have not read the book, it is hard to find these.

    So what about these blobsquatches? How were they able to get not one, but two blobsquatch picture from the 70’s/80’s? Also, the second blobsquatch is supposed to be of “Sheba” holding the pink blanket to her face. This pink blanket plays a big part in the story, so how did they stage that? The time frame of the Sheeba picture can be easily verified by finding the girl in the photo and seeing how old she is now. If she is still a little girl, then we know the shot was faked. If the little girl that appears in the Sheeba picture is all grown up now, then we know the photo really was taken back in the 70s/80s.

    It seems nobody has done that. It seems in general that nobody has really done much research on this hard to believe story, and that is really the whole point of this. I just want researchers to look more into this story and either debunk it piece by piece, or confirm it piece by piece. This, to my knowledge, has not happened. Yes, some parts of the story were found not to match up, and that has been enough it seems to brand the whole episode a “fake”. Is that really how it works? You find one piece that does not match up and you throw the whole story out? Well, for the Carter Farm story, this does seem to be the case.

    Until you read the book, I am afraid you are not really qualified to discuss this.

    BTW, that link I posted is without a doubt the Carter farm. After looking at the picture of the Carter Farm in the book, it is quite obvious that it is the same area. Looking at the farm in Google Earth and reviewing the photos in the book have actually made me more of a “believer” that this story has some truth to it. Now that I can see the farm in Google Earth, it is easy to find the treeline that the blobsquatch is by, which matches up with the area that Janice said the Bigfoot would often come out to the open and play. using that information, it is easy to see the location of the Farm House where the original shot was taken and identify that house as now belonging to the neighbor.

    Thank you.

  73. norman-uk responds:

    What a fine mess you’ve got me into Stanley
    Jeremy Wells Please don’t wait until you have your extreme evidence. Pretty ordinary stuff will do for Sasquatch. Krantz wrote,” a hand would do” but for me much less would be fine ! I am pretty convinced by eyewitness accounts for a start and don’/t need to genufluct to science to become a believer (short for reasonably satisfied the evidence makes a good case)

    PhotoExpert. Bill N is IMO plain wrong accusing L.C. of fabricating kd37354’s blog and for that he ought to apologise. But the rest of his blog he seems to make some fair points in defence of his friend though you may not agree with those points. Myself, I would have done quite a bit more scensoring of the personal bits. Bill N strikes me as not a bad sort of friend to have! You describe kd’s blog as ”condescending” to Mrs C, did you mean a word like vitriolic ?

    You have really taken a slide rule and tweezers to his letter in a very partisan way. Would it not be more scientific to see both sides of the case?

    I am not a scientist but wonder how you know that the human eye cannot sometimes see more than can be recorded by a camera. What you are saying everything is known about this subject (an assumption) when nobody does (my assumption). When you talk about the laws of physics you are in fact talking of human understanding and interpretation of physics at this time, not physics itself.
    Understanding and learning about physics is a work in progress and we do not know the limits of human beings or intelligent life. Science tends to be reductionist and looses sight of (my assumption) that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. In this sense a human being may be just salts and electicity but the potential is wonderful. Look what a simple one or a nought can achieve.
    We know little about other dimensions and what strange things may happen. Ive lost track of your blog somewhat as it was a bit fulsome. But did you exclude the paranormal etc from science ? I don’t think you can do this we just need to expand our view of science or find a new kind of science to explain or deal with events as they come along in those areas. Like one person seeing things that others cannot or talking to spirits or resolving the anomaly why Bigfoot can be seen but not proved clearly. There is evidence but for many not proof. Saying these things are hoaxes or hallucinations is the least reasonable assumption.

  74. grandmamoses responds:

    Photoexpert, After reading through your latest and longest winded reply, I have come to the conclusion that you do not have the physics background that you claim. How did I figure that out? Because you blew it on your definition of “multi-dimensional”. In your dissertaton, you stated, “If BF were a spiritual being or multidimensional being, explain the garlic being given and taken away by Fox when Carter gave him the garlic. You can’t have it both ways. If that happened, for a period of time, even minutes, Fox was acting in accordance with the physical laws of our dimension and was able to take the garlic from Carter. Both were acting within the laws of physics in our dimension.”

    By your explanaton here, a multi-dimensional being cannot exist in man’s dimension and appear to follow the alleged laws of physics, and if he ever does come into man’s dimension, then he is not multi-dimensional. With that explanation, you provided strong circumstantial evidence that you do not have the physics background that you claim you have. Now let me help you and the others like you out, on what “multi-dimensional” means. A multi-dimensional/intedimensional being has the ability to move back and forth between dimensions. Therefore they can appear to be absolutely 100% flesh and blood and follow the laws of physics that man thinks cannot be broken, while in man’s dimension. That multi-dimensional being can then move to other dimensions and lets just call them higher dimensions. In those higher dimensions, things change that would cause a reasonable physicist to conclude that the so-called laws of physics can be broken in the higher dimensions. Therefore, the laws of physics were not laws to begin with, but rather just ordinances that need a little tweaking.

    Now that I got that over with, I think that I am going to take my daily laxative and lie down and have my little nap. And after waking up and rushing off to the little ladies room, I am going to be quite upset if I come back here and see that you kids have not learned your little lesson for the day.

  75. mystery_man responds:

    The problem I see here is that a lot of the evidence is anecdotal and circumstantial. That is not to say that the evidence won’t come to light at some point, and I surely wouldn’t want to close down a possible good avenue of research.

    At this point, I see things displaying what I call the “invisible dragon” line of thinking. This is based on an old thought experiment that goes something like this.

    “There is a fire breathing dragon living in my closet,” I say. A bold claim to be sure, so being the rational person you are, you ask perfectly sensible questions.

    “Can I see it? Can you photograph it,” you ask.

    “No. It’s an invisible dragon,” I reply. “It won’t show up on film.”

    “Well, then surely it has left some sort of physical evidence, perhaps footprints in the dust,” you say.

    “No. It’s immaterial,” I retort.

    This gets you to thinking. “You said it breathes fire. Perhaps we could get a thermal reading off of it?”

    “The dragon’s fire produces no heat and it is the exact same temperature as the air in this dimension. It can do this beacause (I insert some unproven theory of speculative physics that I poorly understand that was written in some book that was likely not properly corroborated by other scientists while at the same time ignoring any book that might refute my ideas)”

    And around and around we go, with each of your investigative questions countered by increasingly complex reasons for why the evidence cannot be produced. In this case, we have a creature that cannot be proven or disproven with any methods we now possess, and therefore a scientist would have no choice but to file it into the “I don’t know” file of reality as we know it until something further was found to ammend that. It has fallen from the realm of science and entered the realm of faith. I might be completely positive this invisible dragon exists, but the thing is, I have to show other people why this is so.

    This is not to say the dragon does not exist. We just have no reaon to accept it as real until we have more information. In this case, to doubt it is not the irrational thing to do, but rather to accept it as reality without more to go on is.

    I also had something else I wanted to touch on here. I understand what Fhqwhgads is saying about the creature perhaps appearing only in our mind’s eye. However, it is clear that whatever it is has exhibited some sort of physicality in this dimension. It has been described as accepting garlic, which implies that it is at least somewhat corpreal part of the time, which means that it is likely that it can be photographically recorded in some fashion, be it by conventional cameras or thermal imaging. It seems to me that creatures projecting themselves directly into our minds would not physically recieve garlic. Also, Carter has described plucking hairs from the creature’s hand, which also suggests there is more to it than merely a mental projection of some sort.

    The garlic is curious to me for other reasons as well. Carter explained that it needed the garlic to ward off mosquitos. If this thing is indeed extradimensional and incorpreal, then I wonder why it would be bothered by insects in our dimension. It seems unlikely to me that a creature that evolved or whatever it did in another dimension would be fed upon by an insect that evolved in this dimension. Compared to this creature, humans and mosquitos would be kissing cousins biologically speaking.

    So this is something I wonder about. How does an immaterial, phasing creature from a different dimension that may be mentally projecting itself have mosquito problems that neccesitate the need to use garlic? This is a curious thing for me.

  76. scrambeledeggman responds:

    I have created a map of the places mentioned in the book as depicted on page 235 of “50 years with Bigfoot Tennessee Chronicles of Co-Existence” if anyone is interested. You can find the link here.

    Thank you.

  77. wuffing responds:

    PhotoExpert wrote” Mental images, hallucinations, etc, are in the psychological and mental realm and therefore can not be photographed. And what you stated, is exactly what I was implying. You got it! Congratulations! We agree! So if the sighting at the Carter trailer could not be photographed, then what was it? Maybe what you just implied! Wuffing, you need to take the “wuff” out of your comments.”

    Thank you for taking the time to read my post. I guess we agree then that the witness may have perceived something that might not have been visible to another person standing nearby. I have first-hand reports of similar events myself.
    Your screen name is PhotoExpert, yet we have no photographs, so where exactly is your expertise being applied in this case? I think you mentioned earlier – I can’t check without losing my post – that all observations must obey the Laws of Physics, but are you sure that we now know all of them? When did we learn the last one?

  78. archer1945 responds:

    Some of the most interesting comments I’ve seen on here in a long time. I have read the book and found it most interesting while, at the same time, a bit troubling. I find it hard to believe that something such as this could go on for just a few years, let alone 50, and not be able to offer any better proof than what is given.

    I’ve been a photographer for more years than I like to think, not a professional, though I’ve done some work that has brought it money at times. I know what a 300mm lens on a 35mm camera is capable of doing, and it doesn’t even have to an extremely high cost professional lens either. That being said I would expect someone who has gone to the trouble to purchase a lens such as that to learn how to use and know how to take photos with it of an object the size of BF up to close to 1/4 mile away, easily out to 200 yards. In other words if you can see it you should be able to get a usable photo. I’m not saying you’ll be able to count the hairs on BF’s head but you should certainly be able to get a photo that shows a real object and not a blobsquatch.

    It was things like the blobsquatch photos, no footprints, no clumps of hair, no recordings of actual BF speech that made me wonder how much of the story was true and how much was fiction. As much as I’d like to believe the Carters story I’m afraid I have to take it with more than a few grains of salt.

    Btw, I am one of those that also believes BF is much more than the dumb primate most want it to be. But that is for another time and place.

  79. mystery_man responds:

    Something that I’ve been noticing with a lot of these posts is the tendency to make statements like “We don’t know everything there is to know about physics,” or “How do YOU know it can’t be real?” or “We don’t know everything,” and so on. This is fine so far. It’s true, we don’t. The problem is that people are commiting a fallacy by making the jump from that to using it as some sort of evidence that anything and everything is possible.

    The tricky thing going on here is that the people who do this would have you believe that once you accept that we don’t know all there is to know about physics (true), then the corollary of that is that you must therefore accept whatever theory they are putting out (fallacy).

    It would be all fine and well if those making these statements gave their opinion and reasons and left it at that, admitting that no one knows for sure. In that case, I would think over what they said and consider it. However, what we have here are those who are giving precise, explicit rules and processes about how multidimensional creatures operate.

    How do you know this? Where is your data? Would that data be acceptable to be reviewed by the greater scientific community rather than just the few cherry picked scientists that support your notions? The thing is, there is no known case of any multidimensional being that we’ve been able to study, so how are these people so sure of how they operate other than from a personal hypothesis on how it must work or from reading a book on it while ignoring others that may refute it? How do we know that this is the reality any more than a thousand other possibilities?

    For instance, what if I said that these Bigfoot need power rings forged in Mordor to facilitate their interdimensional travel and if you took away the ring, they would lose the ability? Or that they are really aliens with teleportation technology? Or that this ability relies on the use of ‘Sureisnifty’ rays? Can you prove this is NOT the case? No you can’t, and I’m sure I could hide behind “we don’t know everything” and “invisible dragon” you, conveniently refuting your refutations if you tried. And that is why we need to tread carefully when ammending our paradigms. If science operated as some here seem to think it should, we’d still be in the Dark Ages.

    It should not surprise anyone that not everything that is possible is actually reality. There are those who unfortunately would expect you to believe that just because it could happen, then it stands to reason that it is happening. This could be, sure, but one purpose of science here is to parse out what really is happening from what could be happening and what to the best of our ability. This is the only way to come to a reasonable semblance of a conclusion as to what is real versus anything at all in our imagination that might be possible but in fact is perhaps not happening. Science is a series of checks and balances that allows us to come to the closest understanding that we are able to have with present methods and equipment. The way to discern that is through sifting through the evidence both for and against. Questioning is a hallmark of science.

    There are those here who I feel are using the fact that we indeed do not know everything about the universe as a blank check to go and define reality as they see fit. This is scientifically lazy, not constructive, and I think we should be wary of this. It is a hallmark of psuedoscience and in my opinion poses the danger of possibly leading us in the wrong directions.

    Mulitdimensional beings? Yes, maybe. I won’t discount the possibility. That doesn’t mean that this is what is indeed going on. For those who seem to know they exist and how they work, that’s fine. However you can’t expect everyone to just believe it because it might be real. If we did that, we would be forced to entertain seriously every unproveable notion anyone could think up. There has to be a way to try to come to some understanding without paralyzing ourselves with an infinite number of possibilities. With our current level of understanding We don’t know what exactly is going on. I certainly wouldn’t say we are in any position to say with the level of certainty being claimed here that we know all about how these beings would operate if they in fact exist.

    “We don’t know the universe works” is true! Yes, yes, and yes again! I just think it would be nice to see some of the proponents here acknowlege their own words and stop defining how everything is supposed to be with these creatures.

    I for one am quite happy to say I don’t know how these things operate. However, I am willing to learn, which is more than it seems can be said about those here that seem to think they have it all nailed down, with all of their cooked data to support their own somewhat preconcieved notions.

    My advice is to be wary of those who say we don’t know everything about the universe and then use that as an excuse for you to buy into their own unfounded theories without being allowed to question them.

  80. proriter responds:

    “. . .that language is a mix of Native American dialectics, with some Spanish and Pidgin English thrown in.” Some of you people would do well to prove that BF exists first, before you speculate absurdly about the sort of language it speaks.

  81. DWA responds:


    “Until you read the book, I am afraid you are not really qualified to discuss this.”

    What I’m afraid you’re not getting is that I am more qualified to discuss this than you are, or the Carters for that matter. Because I understand what’s going on here. And you don’t seem to.

    Don’t want to read the book; don’t have to; don’t need to.

    You TOLD ME WHAT’S IN IT, and as archer1945 says:

    “I find it hard to believe that something such as this could go on for just a few years, let alone 50, and not be able to offer any better proof than what is given.“

    Which is what I have been saying, for post after post.

    A thorough reading of this book, and detailed interviews with every participant, plus lie detector tests, will get me no closer to confirming the sasquatch for myself than sitting right here typing this is doing. Because this is not about the sterling character of the witnesses, or about what they say happened. I will lay you odds that I have read many reports by people of equal or better character. Know what? I ain’t there on the sasquatch yet, and I’ve seen tracks. You?

    This is no better than my track find, or Jeremy_wells’s, or any other single sas report. You can put it in book form if you choose. Know what that makes it? A loooooooong sighting report. With a cover.. File it with the others under “interesting, but not confirmation or anywhere near.”

    What we need here – and I keep on and keep on and keep on saying it – is FOLLOWUP by qualified scientists on what appears to be a real phenomenon that they are ignoring.

    This? You told me what it is. Their word. One more story.

    I’ve gone on the record as saying that if the most trusted person in the world reported a sighting to me, my hmmmm might escalate to HMMMMMM, but I wouldn’t be there, because any ONE – that’s any ONE – story could be a false positive.

    Including this one.

    I’ll pick up the book by the people who confirm the critter and give me accounts and pictures that tell me everything about it – as verified by their scientific peers. Or I’ll stick with the books I already have – the ones that compile MANY stories, that speak eloquently to the frequency and coherence of the overall evidence.

    But scientists have to put that EUREKA! book out, and I need to have seen enough before I crack the cover to know it’s the real McCoy. As I also pointed out way up there, I will know, before I even touch that book, that it’s the truth. Because science works that way.

    Sorry; that’s my standard of proof, and the world’s. And you and the Carters need to get that.

    Cool story. Maybe. But just one story.

    Making very clear here: I cannot doubt the Carters’ word. I was not there; and they were.

    But as I pointed out, very carefully, above: their experience ain’t my proof.

    As you yourself said, scrambledeggman, this is an open case.

    So WHY in the world would I want to read the book NOW?

    As an open case: it’s a sighting report. And I’ve read TONS.


  82. Jeremy_Wells responds:

    RE: the various “dumb primate/it must be something higher statements”

    I think it’s unfair to characterize individuals who put forward what I will call the flesh and blood hypothesis as believing that BF represent a “dumb” primate.

    In fact, I think we all believe he’s a pretty savvy primate, and that is why he is able to elude us.

    Nor would I characterize any of the other higher primates as “dumb”. To do so is human arrogance.

    Gorillas have learned sign language. Sue Savage-Rumbaugh’s bonobo communicate via symbol boards and even began writing to represent those symbols when they board was not present to point at. Orangs regularly pick locks, steal boats, and emulate other behaviors they observe.

    This is on top of chimp tool manufacture, complex pack hunting, etc.

    No, I don’t think any of us would characterize primates as “dumb”. Not by a long shot.

  83. DWA responds:

    jeremy_wells: ditto on the “dumb primate” statements.

    Haivng read a lot of evidence I’m reading: an ape, with behaviors and intelligence (that would be high intelligence) comparable to the apes we know about.

    I think it’s ‘eluding’ us more because we can’t collate the evidence into anything cohesive, because every witness is an island who can’t openly share the experience with the culture at large. But that doesn’t say anything, really, about smarts. People capture really smart crooks all the time, don’t they?

    I think that the “something higher” people are selling apes short. As someone once put it: apes didn’t fail to become us. They succeeded in becoming apes.

  84. DWA responds:

    scrambledeggman: I needed to add this re: your comment on the blobsuit scenario:

    “So, for your scenario to take place,(a staged blobsquatch picture) they would have had to 1) go get a suit, 2) have someone pose in the suit and then, 3) somehow get access to the neighbor’s utility room to take this “staged” shot. If these events happened, it should be easy to prove that a suit was bought or rented and that Janice got access to the neighbor house. These are the kind of follow up questions that need to be asked and answered, but since this is a “case closed”, these just won’t be addressed.”

    You know how this works, right? You go out and do all that followup.


    And THERE is what sticks in my craw about lengthy sighting reports like this. Finish the homework if you want me to spend my money. I can read shorter, and more compelling, sighting reports than someone who has read this book already tells me this book is. And I can do it for free.

    (And if it doesn’t offer what amounts to scientific proof, it’s still only one story. Can’t-find-a-suit does not proof make. Just ask Roger Patterson.)

  85. MrInspector responds:

    Wow! There are certainly a great number of comments on this one! Great meaning volume not content.
    I think, remember my own opinion, the fact that most of the neighbors have no clue that this book exists or that these stores are out there, says a great deal about the validity of the claims. The bottom line, this seems to be devolving into mere name calling.
    I have seen this area and it seems, at the very least, unlikely that this area would allow for a large number of such large creatures to exist in secrecy. Yes, the Smokey’s are close by, but there is a lot of open ground between yonder and yon. A lot of populated open ground. Areas like SE Oklahoma, and the Pacific North West are extremely sparsely populated and some areas have never even held a human footprint. It’s just a little more believable that a large hairy biped could live in these areas unobserved or rarely observed.
    Furthermore, to think that a wild animal decided to domesticate itself, move in with people, adopt their language, and then leave absolutely no proof in it’s wake, flies in the face of logic! It’s patently ludicrous!
    Bill N. or E., or whatever he chooses to call himself at this particular moment, claims there is proof yet offers none. He then goes on to claim Loren made up the neighbor and then wrote the email himself out of malice. If spoken,what he says would be slander, in print it’s libel. I beg, show me any other instance of Loren doing this. Show me any instance where Loren has intentionally deceived his readers by making false claims and allegations. In fact, show me one instance of Loren calling this woman a liar. You can’t, because it hasn’t happened.
    I may not always agree with Loren’s conclusions, I may not always agree with the subject matter. I don’t necessarily believe in Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, UFOs, or psychic mediums, but I’ve never seen any indication that Loren Colman has set out to deceive a single soul about any of the things he writes about.
    Loren and I have exchanged a few emails over the last couple of years, we’re not drinking buddies nor would I even say we’re friends, we’ve never met! However, every communication I’ve had with the man was genuine, honest and very polite. I have no vested interest in this story or defending Loren. I’m merely stating in my Not So Humble Opinion(humility is for those who don’t carry a big enough side arm) this Bill N. or E. is “stuffed absolutely full of blueberry muffins.” (kudos if you get the movie quote)Janice on the other hand seems to me to be a bit off. And believe me, I’ve spent enough time with people who have problems to know when someone isn’t quite right. I’m not saying she’s a loon, I’m not calling her a liar. But it just doesn’t make sense!
    This isn’t a venue for personal attacks!

  86. PhotoExpert responds:

    I appreciate the responses from all, even if we disagree. It would be a boring world if everyone agreed with each other. For me, it is both healthy and fun to discuss these issues. Now to answer some posts.

    Jeremy_Wells–Another excellent and to the point post. Keep up the great posting!

    norman-uk–I think you have a great understanding and your analysis of the situation is spot-on!

    Grandmamoses–It was my opinion that you were just a confused older person who likes fantasy stories about multidimensional beings. Now, I think you are a comedian. I got a good laugh from your post. I thank you for that! As for your opinion of my knowledge in physics is concerned, I would say the institution and the those that signed the diploma that is hanging on my wall in front of me, would vehemently disagree with you, as to my expertise. LOL But thanks for your learned opinion which again goes against the facts, once again.

    You seem to have a knack for making up fantasy stories, nurturing them as your opinion and trying to pawn them off as facts. I was trying to be kind to you in my post. But now I will just be upfront since you don’t seem to grasp educated opinions or facts and would rather live in your created world of fantasy. Do some reading. Current physicists use the words multidimensional, intradimensional, interdimensional, etc., and they can be substituted, depending on the party we are engaging in conversation. You yourself used the word multidimensional. So that is the pot calling the kettle black. I’ll use your example to clarify my point in plain English, so even a layman can understand. Multi, meaning many, or more than one–a multidimensional being can exist in more than one dimension or transverse from one dimension to another. Your question should now be, can a multidimensional being exist in more than one dimension at the same time? Who knows and who cares, since we have not proven multidimensional theory. It is just that, a theory. But you would have us believe it is fact! It is not! And yes, once again, in the Fox taking the garlic example, Fox and the garlic would be subject to the constraints of the laws of physics in this dimension, whether you like it or not or whether you disagree with that fact or not. I will buy into facts. I will buy into the possibilities of theories. However, I am not going to buy into your la-la fantasyland where everything is possible, even the breaking of the laws of physics, to make your fictional story believable.

    You do have some basic conceptual ideas of some theories. However, your understanding of those theories is limited to some extent. You get the idea but don’t fully understand how it works and are either limited by your lack of knowledge on the subject or your insistence that it makes your story more believable. And when you can’t explain it or the law refutes your fantasy theory, you always opt for mixing the theories or using the parts of them that fit. You must accept the entire theory for it to hold true. Let’s use an example shall we. If an object in motion tends to stay in motion, until acted upon by an outside force, that would be a law of physics. You would say, that an object in motion might have free will and decide to morph into another dimension and continue that motion. You mix a law of physics with multidimensional theory to suit your fantasy stories. You can’t do that grandma! Well, you can do it, but you would be wrong. So you are wrong! Plain and simple! A little knowledge is a dangerous thing and is better left to the experts like myself. But good try!

    Grandma, I could debate and refute your posts ad infinitum, but I really don’t have the time or energy to waste. And I am not a fan of fiction. So I do not want to discuss the Klingon language or debate a morphing BF. If it exists, it is a flesh and blood creature that acts under the laws of physics in our world. End of story!

    mystery_man–Thank goodness you posted! I was going a little bonkers in trying to comprehend the insanity of grandma’s post. You saved me a lot of typing! Thank you for that and for bringing back to the real world. I might have lost my sanity if it were not for you! Great post as always!

    wuffing–I enjoyed reading your post. I took the time to do it because you write concisely and are intelligent! We agree on most things. And when we might have an area of disagreement, I embrace that too because of the intelligent way you express yourself. I don’t know how long you have been at this board, but whenever I see a new screen name, I watch for their postings. If I like the way the person posts, even if we might be adversarial, I will read their posts. We agree on most things, so you do not fall into that category. You fall into the category of DWA and mystery_man, who are two of my favorite posters at this forum. If you are new here, my screen name is one of things I have accomplished in life. I am even used as an expert witness in a court of law. I have the credentials to evaluate photographs and have an extensive background in optical physics. I am a photo expert. LOL As for this case, I have no dog in the fight. If I did, I could not comment on the Carter photographs or blobsquatches. I would have to remain impartial and objective. Fortunately for me, I can remain subjective as far as this case is concerned.

    As for your physics question, no, we do not know all the laws of physics. There are some new laws which we should learn about shortly, but as of today, these would be laws concerning new discoveries of things that were theorized by man. What I can say with certainty is that given the parameters of the Carter case, even a morphing BF would be constrained to the physical laws of our world. End of story! Now, in another dimension, a morphing BF would not be constrained by our physical laws. Ergo, even when a morphing BF enters our realm, he or she, would be subject to the laws of physics. No way around that! And to think, a morphing BF just wanted garlic and is afraid of cameras. LOL Sorry, if BF does exist, it is a flesh and blood cryptid. I look forward to reading more of your posts here at the forum.

    archer1945–Excellent post!

    proriter–Spot on! I said that exact same thing, earlier in this thread!

    DWA–Great posting as always! I have nothing to add!

  87. grandmamoses responds:

    Photo expert, I can see that I really got under your skin, or perhaps I got under the skin of your boss. wink, wink! You ought to run for political office because you are an expert at evasion, confusion and disinformation. Associating interdimensional theories with Bigfoot was accepted by science apparently well before your time. But your mission statement today, apparently includes attacking those that bring light to that history, that most never knew. That Klingon association in order to discredit my science tip for the day, was a nice touch as well. And say hello to Karl Rose and Irishtheruler, next time you see them around the water cooler, which I imagine will be your very next coffee break. There cover has been blown as well. Oops, I guess I shouldn’t have said that. Sorry.
    Now I think that I will just watch my old Lawrence Welk and Bob Hope recordings. My blood pressure is starting to rise and I don’t want to say something else here that I will later regret, and may have to go to confession in order set things right again. But I think I said enough. Except for one more thing. Long live the interdimensional Bigfoot! Hip, hip hooray!

  88. Ole Bub responds:

    Give it a break Cryptos…

    I know Janice, and many other “habituators ” who make similar claims. I am proud to call her a friend and associate. Do I believe her every statement, not necessarily, however I do believe she believes her memory of events on the Carter farm. Her claims are commonplace and repeatable among those who habituate.

    I know Janice is active in large breed dog rescue, we have worked together in rescue, she has saved many dogs from unnecessary euthanasia. Some folks on this blog have provided forever homes for dogs we have rescued. I talked to her last evening, she is deeply offended and hurt by the mean spirited remarks regarding her children and some of the vicious comments of this blog.

    We have enabled, facilitated and networked with habituators for some time. Evidence of habituation, as a rule, is not shared or destributed, resulting from the many negative experiences of zealous thugs, skeptics, scoftics, who trespass, assault, threaten, intimidate and ridicule those who attempt to share information, images, videos, or locations, with “sasquatchery”.

    Myself and other like minded facilitators have provided over a hundred thousand dollars in digital cameras, HD video camcorders, audio recording equipment, logistical and financial support, including thousands of hours of effort for those “genuine” habituation cases we support. We are non profit self funded and therefore objectively independent. We do not monetize sasquatchery.

    There are over thirty case studies in several states, spanning North America, whose research is fastidiously documented and recorded utilizing scientific methodology for eventual full disclosure and publication to the scientific community. We work with several notable scientists, anthropologists and researchers from major North American Universities, and the Russian Institute of Hominology.

    We have no hidden agendas and actively support passive respectful no kill observation and research, while quietly documenting those efforts. The evidence is clear, compelling and convincing, Loren and Craig know this as fact, whether they will admit it or not is another issue.

    We are working with various State and Federal governmental agencies including Fish and Wildlife, services, we cooperate and have the support and endorsement of several Native American First Nations to recognize and protect the “North American Aboriginal Ancient Peoples”, from sport hunting and harassment. “Tribal Bigfoot” and “The Hoopa Project”, by David and Harvey, offer some insight into tribal investigational cooperation.

    Wish us well or wish us ill will…no matter…it is what it is…

    live and let live…

    ole bub and the dawgs

  89. scrambeledeggman responds:

    Yes, this story does seem to get people fired up.

    I can totally agree on not agreeing.

    I don’t have a problem with this story being a hoax, or being real (0r being the middle ground). For the folks that have read the book (er, I mean sighting report 😉 generally say the same thing, that this is an interesting story, but very hard to believe. Yes, I agree 100% with what Archer1945 said…”I have read the book and found it most interesting while, at the same time, a bit troubling.”

    Yes, exactly! Interesting, but troubling.

    I am not here to convince anyone this story is true or not.

    I am here to bring up the point that, in my opinion, Janice and Mary have not been given “due credit”, but dismissed without anyone critically looking at the story.

    1) if this story is true, let’s give them credit for bringing this story to the BF community and give them credit for documenting some unique and hard to believe BF behaviors that no other researcher has put forth.

    2) if this story is a hoax, well, let’s give them credit for that! If this is a hoax, lets acknowledge what a good hoax this is and let’s acknowledge how much work went into this hoax. If this is a hoax, then it is one of the most elaborate and well put together hoaxs in the history of Bigfoot lore. If this story is 100% made up, lets take a minute to say that Janice is a brilliant story teller with a vivid imagination and obviously highly intelligent to be able to weave a story without any holes in the logic. Someone call Hollywood, because we have an amazing storyteller here!

    See, you can’t have it both ways.

    In my opinion, neither one of these scenarios is happening. People are calling it a hoax, but not really taking the time to appreciate what an elaborate hoax this is. For the people that seem to be doing real research on this sighting report, well, they are not sharing this information to “prove” these events have/are happening.

    Either way, no new information about this “sighting report” is surfacing, and it has devolved into a name calling fest.

    My point is that more research into this interesting but troubling story needs to happen so we can all agree (well, most of us) that this story is either a hoax, or it really happened (or something happened on this property and the rest was made up)

    My only other comment would be to Mr DNA about me “putting down the book” and doing real research… I did do some real research.. I found the actual Carter Farm! I am not sure if you realize this, but, this is the first time the location of the Carter Farm has been publicly identified. I also digitized the locations mentioned in the book. This is also the first time this has been done in a public forum. If you doubt this is true, just review what motivated kd37354 to write to Loren in the first place… She was correcting the reported location of the Carter Farm that Loren’s brother reported! See, the location of the Carter Farm was not really known to the general BF community, so that is why Loren’s brother could not find it. Now that we know the location of the farm, we can start to take apart some of the claims in the book, er I mean sighting report. (i.e. searching the public records to see if the attack on the teenage girl was actually reported in the local paper like Janice claims in the book. Now that we know where the farm is, we can find the local paper and search the archives)

    Anyway, I can agree to not agree.

    From all the comments posted here, it is very obvious to me that there are folks that have an open mind on this story and are willing to keep an open mind about the need for more research into these troubling claims. It is also very clear to me that there are other folks that refuse to look at this story because it is too far-fetched and so therefore it must NOT be true.

    This just solidifies my own personal theory that there is a real bias about the Carter Farm story in the larger Bigfoot community.

    Some will agree with this statement and some won’t. The ones that agree I am sure will silently nod their head in agreement. The ones that don’t think there is a bias about this story I am sure will continue to resort to name calling and other evasive tactics.

    Thanks everyone for your comments!

  90. CryptoInformant 2.0 responds:

    Okay, as far as the personal lives of the people involved in this Bigfoot habituation incident, whether it really happened or not, I hold the same stance on that issue as I do with the lives of celebrities – who really cares? Of what relevance is the personal life of J. Carter to this? What we should be focusing on is the lack of solid evidence, not how a person happens to live.

    Now, for another issue entirely;

    Grandmamoses – When exactly was “associating interdimensional theories with Bigfoot” accepted by science? As far as I know, it is generally the habit of science to first discern whether something truly exists – a feat yet to be accomplished in this case – before quibbling over the details. That I know of, this association you’re talking about hasn’t been accepted by science, but rather by a few people on what may be termed the fringe of the fringe of science.

  91. grandmamoses responds:

    CryptoInformant 2.0, lets first establish your age, and please submit irrefuteable and verifiable proof so that we can be reasonably confident that you are telling the truth about just that one item. Then we will talk about what you missed out on as a result of not even being a thought, much less being born, when the Bigfoot was well talked about nationwide. I find it interesting that virtually all the four horseman for starters, were not living in the States, or were not living in a major US city, when the interdimensional Bigfoot was known about. Which is why the four horseman are 24/7 F&Bers, or at least they have not confessed to being anything else that I am aware of. Although, EB did claim that John Greene seemed to be comfortable with the paranormal Bigfoot a few years back, before he died. Morgan, Lapseritis, Powell, Franzoni, Moneymaker, Dave Johnson, Leiterman, Fred Beck, and hundreds of others have all at least privately shown strong leanings toward the interdimensional Bigfoot. So the interdimensional Bigfoot is nothing new. You also must ask yourself, what caused the word “interdimensional” to come into existence in the first place. It wasn’t because nothing is interdimensional, I can guarantee you that. Simple logic dictates that “interdimensional” came into existence because something was. Now what do you think it was if it wasn’t Bigfoot? tick,tick,tick,tick bzzzzzz Times up!

    Bigfoot remains the most likely culprit, in my opinion, for causing that word to come into existence. I can also see here that readers are not watching enough of the sci-fi channel, when not searching for Bob Hope reruns of course. sigh! Virtually everything Bigfoot is covered on the sci-fi channel today, or in full fledged movies like Predator (invisibility, partial invisibility, weightlessness) or Star Trek (dematerializing, telepathic communication in the Borg). Except without directly associating that stolen material with Bigfoot. I once passed a photo of Bigfoot orbs to writers for the Sasquatch Dumpling Gang, and next thing I know there is a dud movie out on a Super Orb. Now that is all plagarism! And contrary to the claims of a ghost hunter here, Orbs are quite real and can easily be seen with the naked eye by holding your head above a camera with flash, when out in the woods at night, an simply look out and see all the orbs that light up with your camera flash. Piece of cake. The move to convince the public that orbs are mere dust particles, is phooey!

    Bigfoot research in the US, is constantly being subverted by an organized nationwide group that utilizes pawns like MK Davis, and Photo Expert. With the recent USFW sponsoring of a Bigfoot information talk (not mentioned on Cryptomundo), that clandestine group has redoubled its efforts to destroy the credibility of real Bigfoot researchers like Janice Carter.

  92. Jeremy_Wells responds:


    Those “orbs” you see after holding your head over a camera flash, those are a result of the rods and cones in your retina being momentarily overwhelmed by the flash of light.
    The same effect is registered when, for instance, you spend time under a green light and upon leaving the room everything looks red. There is, in fact, a famous painting of an American flag done in opposite colors (Green, Orange and Black instead of Red, Blue and White) and if you stare at this long enough, then look at a plain white canvas, you will see an after image of the red, white and blue flag.

    I’m old enough to remember flash bulbs on cameras, and the crazy balls of light we’d see after having our pictures taken as kids with those. But now we’re REALLY veering off the topic of cryptozoology.

  93. allandeabnei responds:

    I Lived with Janice Carter for 15 months, in Indiana and Tennessee, and I am very tired of distractors, while I lived with her in Tennessee, we was allowed to go by the farm, many times,and her boy friend at the time, also claimed her story is true, well now her is my side of the story,I stopped to talk to one neighbor, and got a chance to know him, and build a trust with him and his wife,and finally they told me Janice and her grand father was indeed telling the truth, you have to build a trust with people around that area, before the truth comes out, most neighbors will say any thing just to get rid of the person asking around, so I ask you, does this seem like common sense, yes it does, and the book of Janice Carter, says mountains are near by, not on the farm, well now lets look at that, I went past mountains less then 5 to 10 miles from there, I would say that is close, and yes they are the foot hills to the smoky mountains, another distractor, we all know, wrote he went to the police dept, and they had no reports, well what he did not tell you was, he did not talk to the police chief or even the mayor of Madisonville during the time that the Carters resided their, now while would he leave that detail out, I am here to make the reader to stop and think about the truth, and consider the source, its just a matter of common sense folks, tom biscardi Jr. and his crew was at the carter farm in July of 2008, by the besetts of Janice carter, I have the pictures to prove that, in order to put a stop to to the nay sayers,

    now let get to the truth of fox and family, I have left food for fox and family, found their foot tracks, and have seen bo and fox once, and again watched Janice carter talk to them in the dark at night, I have watched bo scream from a hill top, twice, my wife has seen fox looking in on her from a window several times, so I will tell you it is a true story,
    now lets get to me taking pictures of them, hell no I did not, why should I, I am not out to prove a darn thing, if the skeptics want to run their mouth, because they think this story is a hoax, then they need to take a look at they own hearts and sins first, Janice does have pictures of them, and have seen them, I have seen her note books on the language she took through the years, I have seen her sell off certain artifacts from the carter farm, to make a living, is she poor, heck yes she is,
    why, because she is unhealthy to work, and I wont go in to that, again stop and think, all we need is gods wealth, not material possessions, has she ever worked a job, yes indeed she has, and has helped pay the taxes for the welfare she was on for years, again remember, you have to live with some one in order to know that person, of all the things I have seen in 15 months living with a legend, I have to say she is real, complicated yes, you would be to if you had all the distractors out there and her trying to defending herself, and then throwing up your hands at a all most impossible job, so I will step up and take the heat, my name is steve abney, thank you for your time,

  94. allandeabnei responds:

    just a after note if you will, people say their are no pictures in the book,well let me say this, they did not look very hard, if you see the picture of the young blonde girl standing by the old car, then look over her to her right, and you will see sheeba and fox looking from the shadows, and now we say they are blob squatches, well take and invert them and you will see they turn white not uf blue , if some thing is covered in hair and the aultra violet light hits it, it does not turn blue but white or grey, this a fact, now use common sense and see if that huge hair thing could be a domestic animal in the shape of a human, wow, its so easy folks, stop and think,

  95. tschools responds:

    I am not sure the intentions of the neighbor, but its interesting she hasn’t responded for quite some time now. Heck I live near Loren but I’ve never seen him, does he exsist? Just a little Maine humor. Lighten up people!

  96. CryptoInformant 2.0 responds:

    Grandma, I do not see how my age is relevant to this discussion at all, and, were I to do what you asked – that is, provide irrefutable proof of my age – I would have to post my birth certificate here on the internet, which is just asking for identity theft.

    Now, on the issue of the word interdimensional, I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the channel on which all the bigfoot stuff is apparently covered – sci-fi. That is, science-fiction. Quantum physics is the only field in which I have seen use of that word in a serious manner by qualified, reliable scientists. Aside from that, the best use for that word is in my favorite section of the entertainment industry – science-fiction novels.

    Also… “an organized nationwide group” subverting Bigfoot researchers? I’m sure you’re getting tired of this line by now, but I gotta say it…
    Where. Is. The. Proof?

  97. littlefoot18 responds:

    I remeber hearing this story, I had a hard time believing it, and now i still have doubts, I believe the sasquatch are intellegent, native american legend claims that they often interacted with them, inculding vocal comunication, i find this believable becuase a bipedal hominid such as sasquatch would have similar if not the same vocal chords ans muscles as humans. However, I dont beilieve that the sasquatch would speak english because they are so elusive that interaction with humans is nearly absent these days. With that said, i find the idea of interactions with humans in a location of almost complete farmland and little forested areas to hide in rather farfetched.

  98. saleen469 responds:

    Anybody believing such an absolute fairy tale as Janice Carter has spun isn’t too far from her.

  99. Igor Bourtsev responds:

    So broad discussion on the Carter case!
    I did not read all comments before and have no time to read them now.
    But I understand that the overwhelming majority does not believe the Carter’s story. I think the reason is that WE HAVE DEAL/CA– USE with very much unusual REALITY, with UNUSUAL kind of reality which is almost beyond of our sense, of our mind, of our imagination.
    It is principally NEW kind of reality – Bayanov called it “HOMINKIND” in the contrary to “HUMANKIND”.
    And when the HUMANKIND recognises the HOMINKIND, homins will turn their faces to us, and we’ll have opportunities to closely contact to them.
    But now – only a miserious part of the humankind understand such neghboured homins and contact to them. And Janice Carter is one of such an understanding humans. And fortunately – she is not alone!

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