Aussie Panthers
Posted by: Craig Woolheater on February 5th, 2007
Australian crypto researcher Mike Williams sent Cryptomundo the link to this article.
Strange encounters of the panther kind
THE mystery of a colossal cat seen roaming the region began to unravel last week as residents reported more panther sightings to the Macarthur Chronicle.
Wedderburn resident Ted Lalor, 70, said he and a neighbour saw a panther near their homes six months ago.
“The boys in Appin who saw the panther last week were fair dinkum,” he said.
“I’ve shot feral cats before and there’s no way a cat could grow to the size of the animal I’m talking about. Eventually someone will knock off one of these creatures, then people will finally believe they exist.”
Two people who won’t need much convincing are teenagers Emilly and Karrine.
Emilly said she saw the creature while riding her horse at Sugarloaf Horse Centre in Menangle.
“The first time I saw the panther, it chased me on my horse,” she said.
“But I’ve seen it other times and it just hangs around then goes back into the bush. My friend Karrine told me she saw the same thing.”
Other reports included Kelly, 29, who saw the big cat near the Broughton Pass in Appin, and Dale Shackleton who recalled a panther terrorising his Appin farm and the Inghams chicken sheds more than 30 years ago.
Cryptozoologist Mike Williams said scientists believed a breed of big cat existed in Australia but they were unsure whether it was a mutated feral cat, native, or an exotic cat, like a panther.
“There is something out there,” he said. “Where there’s smoke, there’s fire. People don’t just wake up in the morning with an urge to say they have seen a panther.”
Mr Williams said big cats were among the best animals when it came to camouflage and were largely nocturnal.
“That humans see these creatures is not amazing – what is amazing is that we see them at all,” he said.Macarthur Chronicle
Co-founder of Cryptomundo in 2005.
I have appeared in or contributed to the following TV programs, documentaries and films:
OLN's Mysterious Encounters: "Caddo Critter", Southern Fried Bigfoot, Travel Channel's Weird Travels: "Bigfoot", History Channel's MonsterQuest: "Swamp Stalker", The Wild Man of the Navidad, Destination America's Monsters and Mysteries in America: Texas Terror - Lake Worth Monster, Animal Planet's Finding Bigfoot: Return to Boggy Creek and Beast of the Bayou.
“People don’t just wake up in the morning with an urge to say they have seen a panther.”
What a great comment! One can replace “panther” with any beast of the moment, and apply it to many other paranormal apparitions as well.
The cases of Australian Big Cats are very interesting. This has come up on Cryptomundo before and it is always fascinating to hear people’s take on this phenomena. From what I understand, it is highly unlikely that there is any type of indigenous cat species in Australia, although I could be wrong. There is no fossil record, but that doesn’t mean they are not there. But the evidence is mostly against the prospect. I do know that there are several introduced species that are thriving there, so maybe the cats are exotics? There was a photo awhile back of a guy who shot a supposed panther in Australia but to the best of my memory, it was inconclusive. I would sure like to know what is going on over there.
In every place where wild big cats show up unexpected, the talk is of how they could be released pets.
That could be the case here. I was surprised – after pooh-pooing the idea for years – how common “pet” cougars are in the US. Maybe they are part of the reason – possibly even a significant part of the reason – for the many eastern sighting reports outside FL.
Can’t vouch for Oz. Large placental predators just don’t seem to have evolved there. But has the possibility that this animal is indeed a marsupial been ruled out?
Yes, the “escaped exotic” theory is an old standby, but in situations where there is no other alternative, it holds true. Australia is not known to have any indigenous large cats, and there is nowhere that cats could wander in from as is the case in the United States. They are either an unknown indigenous species or an introduced species and so far the evidence is not in support of this being some previously unknown Australian big cat so I tend to go with the more mundane explaination that these are exotics for the time being. There is the possibility that it is a type of marsupial, but the eyewitness reports tend to closely match what one would expect from any large cat sighting, so I hesitate to jump to the theory that it is some sort of marsupial cat.
Then again there is the Yowie and if that exists I doubt it is introduced so there is the offchance that there are undiscovered native cats from that region. I am not going to entirely discount that theory.
I find it fascinating that nature decided that marsupials were the way to go in Australia. What made them so successful and why that peculiar response to the environmental conditions?
Marsupial cats? What about marsupial Yowies?
I dunno, seems to me that if Australia had ever had any native panthers, they’d be anything but rare. Come on! They blow away anything else there except the Salties for the title of apex predator, and not much except the Salties could put up much of a fight against them (Maybe a cornered ‘Roo or Emu). I would also imagine that the natives would have many a tale to tell about them too. I mean, we are talking about an animal that eats people from time to time. I think I would actually have to lean towards the introduced exotics in this case.
Unless black panthers just have an innate ability to teleport vast distances in order to expand their hunting grounds, in which case they’ll turn up most anywhere. Helluva evolutionary advantage if so, but I doubt if the energy expenditure would match that gained by unsuspecting foreign prey.
“There was a photo awhile back of a guy who shot a supposed panther in Australia but to the best of my memory, it was inconclusive. I would sure like to know what is going on over there.”
It turned out to be fcatus after dna was sampled.
Not all the photos were released.
sadly the hunter disposed of the body like most feral hunters do for some odd reason since they dont attach any “value” to large dead cats.
There are other photos of fcattus, larger than that one shot and they are alive near items fence posts to gauge rough estimates of size.
These photos will be released later this year..
Whats puzzling is there is no koori art/lore dealing with felids, no native names were recorded for felids when the first koori languages were being translated and no observation of any cats outside settlement areas until 1884.
But..there is always a but..the first recorded sighting of a cat outside settlement areas was of any an animal that was “nearly the size of a leopard” in the Northern Territory by a scientific exploration group which is roughly the same year first circuses/shows appeared with exotic cats in oz.These were in NSW and Victoria.
So, if it was observed correctly, an escaped exotic bolted from NSW/Victoria and within a few months traveled several thousand miles to run smack bang in to the few white men in the whole of the northern Territory.
Doesn’t sound likely, does it?
Which leaves us back at square one. 🙂
Mike
Big cats sightings are something that have occurred in some of the Australian Bush for well over a century.
An early naturalist in Australia, Albert Sherbourne Le Souef (late C19th early C20th) identified a animal often sighted in Queensland and known as the Queensland Tiger as Thylacoleo carnifex, a native marsupial lion of Australia dating from the pleistocene era , which is believed to have measured 1.5m in length and weigh about 120kg.
Curiously this animal or something very similar was regularly sighted in North Queensland, by bush hunters and settlers etc . Sightings were common enough for it to be included in an early book on Australian Wildlife ‘The wild animals of Australasia’ . Aboriginal rock art also strongly suggests records of this animal possibly into historic times but this is open to debate.
A large feral cat as mentioned by Ozestrange was shot by a hunter Kurt Engel in Victoria. The animal was estimated from the photos at 1.85m (less tail I think) in length being described as large, black and muscular. The tail was cut from the dead cat and measured 70cm. DNA showed it to be a feral domestic cat.
So I suppose it may be possible that two types of animals in different parts of the Australian continent could be responsible for large cat sighting.
With regards to the cat shot by Engel I have no ideas how a breeding population of feral cats could get so big (if indeed there is such a breeding population). The increase in size seems to quick for the period of time domestic cats have been in Australia. The only explanation I can think is a study done by a Australian University (which one slips my mind) showing that DNA of northern Feral cats in Australia showed evidence of large genetic drift possibly indicating that feral cats predate European settlement, (origin possibly Asian).
In any case whatever they are they are certainly real!.
I don’t think that feral cats would have gotten so big in that amount of time. What would be the catalyst for that kind of growth? If they are suited to their environment and there is enough prey, there would not be any reason for them to select for larger size, especially not in such a rapid manner. Getting larger can actually be a risk as it includes the commitment to more nutritional requirements. Ozestrange- As for an exotic cat wandering long distances, I would not put it beyond them to wander far and wide looking for suitable habitat although several thousand miles does seem a bit extreme. I’d be interested to know more about the lore surrounding the case you mentioned. It is curious. I am sure all of the witnesses in these cases cannot all be lying or misidentifying and I doubt that these are just outsized ferals for reasons I mentioned above. The earlier posts were correct to say that there are no old native reports of felids in Australia as far as I can tell. If there was a breeding population of indigenous cats, then I too think there would be more of a record of them. Why would they start appearing in modern days after remaining hidden to even the natives? I don’t know about the story ozestrange mentioned, but I am still holding to these being exotics of some kind.
I tend to agree with mystery_man.
Thylacoleo carnifex, still on the loose, would be cool. As would an uncatalogued carnivore. But Occam says, simplest explanation = most likely explanation. That is, simplest PLAUSIBLE explanation. Domestic cats the size of leopards, in Australia, equals not so plausible. Actually big domestic cats anywhere. As mm asks, where’s the catalyst? It’s not totally impossible. But it sure isn’t something that’s been observed to happen often.
It’s been exotics elsewhere. It likely is here.
Can’t help it, but I always smell fish when no one comes up with good photographs and documentation of a dead animal. I don’t rule it out, and in fact could go on for some time why, in a particular case, it might happen. But EVERY time? Hmmmmm.
Well, the notion of feral cats descended from Chinese ship cats is an interesting one. That would give them more time to drift genetically, and I would think the tendency would be for them to get bigger, owing to the ease of capturing prey. The commonly-accepted belief regarding Maine Coon Cats, which are very big, is that they arrived in the Americas with the Vikings around 1000 CE. If Maine hadn’t had Cougars back then, they might now, due to the time the feral cats would have had to adapt. That’s a bit of an exaggeration, no doubt, but the fact is that Maine Coons clearly had more competition from other animals than any cats in Australia have, or would have had. Perhaps the Aussie Cats could have grown to the size of small panthers between 1420 or so and today.
“Thylacoleo carnifex, still on the loose, would be cool. As would an uncatalogued carnivore. But Occam says, simplest explanation = most likely explanation.”
err, actually he didnt.
entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem,
which translates to:
entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity.
You forgot to tell us the evidence for tc and what species/evidence there is for the “uncatalogued carnivore”.
And…one could argue that you are multiplying entities by bringing in “exotics”/ or animals that have no evidence for their existence now days rather than sticking to known felids and just making them a tad bigger..
Our “argument” is that if feral cats can grow around 870mm in body, then there is the potential for them to get bigger then..
Video on youtube.
“That is, simplest PLAUSIBLE explanation.”
What is .?
An uncatalogued carnivore, but there is no body as you correctly suggest, and where is the evidence for tc besides 4 or 5 anecdotes and no spoor/kill evidence.
“Domestic cats the size of leopards, in Australia, equals not so plausible”
Do you know the actual size range of all sub species of leopards.? 🙂
And the first large cat report, from a scientific expedition, as my post said, was in 1884 in the northern territory.Please tell me how your escaped exotic theory explains this since this is the approx same year exotic cats came into OZ in circuses.
Because I cannot explain large feral for this either…. 🙂
And no…miners/farmers bringing in exotics is not plausible before or around this date- cost/feed etc.
“As mm asks, where’s the catalyst? ”
species cross/gigantism gene component being expressed/mutation/enviromental influences… how does any change in body size within species occur normally in evolution.
“But it sure isn’t something that’s been observed to happen often.”
At least you admit it can happen 🙂
“It’s been exotics elsewhere. It likely is here.”
Where has it been “exotics elsewhere”.I know of the surrey puma captured/lion shot in bush near broken hill .. what other examples are there of mystery large cats being caught shot/caught in countries where they are not supposed to exist..and not examples of pumas turning up in the wrong state of the US etc…
“Can’t help it, but I always smell fish when no one comes up with good photographs”
I think you have the wrong hobby/interest if you are after good photos.This is cryptid country..all photos are supposed to be fuzzy, poorly framed etc. 🙂
But there are “good” photos and video sequences around of large black cats in Australia, the most plausible is they are “just” monster ferals and not exotics since they dont appear to share the tails/ears etc of the big cat family.And, you are confusing what photos you have personally seen on television and books ??..with what photos/video are actually out there, which are not in the public domain.
Steve Temby filmed a large felid, I do not believe it is an exotic.
here are the stills. that was pretty good footage.
Australian Big Cats.
“documentation of a dead animal. I don’t rule it out, and in fact could go on for some time why, in a particular case, it might happen. But EVERY time? Hmmmmm. ”
good point…. but then you would be using your own argument against any evidence you are about to provide to us to support your own theories.
“Well, the notion of feral cats descended from Chinese ship cats is an interesting one.”
yes, but i pointed out in my first post under this heading why there is not a shred of evidence for feral cats outside settlement areas in any journal by any explorer until 1884 plus the koori being unfamiliar with the animals and have no historical names for felids..
none of it makes sense… 🙂
Perhaps, but it was the same kind of argument with big cats in New Zealand. I think one of the main reasons for a creature to evolve to be bigger would be to capture larger prey due to competition for their original prey. If all of the cats are eating, say, birds, then one may evolve to be big enough to eat deer. In an environment without any competition, with plenty of prey, what would be the thing that would key for large growth of that sort? A lot of animals have evolved to be smaller since prehistoric times, not larger. If the niche is filled and there are no other influences, nature tends to stick with what is working. So I am a bit skeptical about the ferals evolving to the size of panthers. I feel it is quite a bit of a stretch. The environment simply would not have given such an extreme reason for this kind of size.
“Perhaps, but it was the same kind of argument with big cats in New Zealand.”
Exactly, the best footage, was from a helicopter, which showed large fcatus, not anything from panthera genus.
I spoke to the game hunter and have the original photos from the helicopter.Two professional hunters said big cats.It was not a normal large moggie.
I say super sized fcatus. 🙂
“I think one of the main reasons for a creature to evolve to be bigger would be to capture larger prey due to competition for their original prey.”
Like competition from wild dogs,dingoes and foxes..sure.
“If all of the cats are eating, say, birds, then one may evolve to be big enough to eat deer.”
Sure, we agree..
” In an environment without any competition, with plenty of prey, what would be the thing that would key for large growth of that sort?”
Sure..but negated by what you suggested about competition.
” So I am a bit skeptical about the ferals evolving to the size of panthers.”
when you use the word “panther” we mean leopard range, there are sub species of leopards that are all different size ranges and habitat/food supply and sex also effect size.
” I feel it is quite a bit of a stretch.”
Okay, then the alternative is there are exotic big cats running around, or undiscovered native big cats.
Cool, don’t mind if we are wrong with that being the alternative..but so far..it ain’t looking good. 🙂
“The environment simply would not have given such an extreme reason for this kind of size.”
But you suggested competition earlier on..we will go with that option..and or, mutations of some form..
I was using “panther” as a general term and did not intend for it to be taken literally. I am just airing thoughts and did not think my post would be dissected like that. My degree is in zoology and although I am not an expert on cats, I am well aware there are subspecies involved. I guess I should have made my point clearer. Yes, those are all very good points, but look at the amount of time we are talking about. Usually size adaptations like that occur over very long periods of time. How long have feral cats been in Australia? It is an amazing amount of growth for a relatively shorty period of time and that is my main problem with that theory. You got me on competition though, I suppose there is quite a bit on further inspection! After thinking on this some more, I guess the right conditions are in place for a size increase but for these changes to occur in such a short amount of time, there would have to be extraordinary circumstances involved. “The environment simply would not have given such an extreme reason for this kind of size.”
But you suggested competition earlier on, we will go with that option, and or, mutations of some form. Competition is not necessarily an extreme condition. There are other ecosystems with a good deal of competition that have not seen species surge in growth in the amount of time we are talking about here. I don’t think such short range growth would not happen suddenly without good reason. It is not impossible, I suppose, but what I want to know is the reason for it. Any ideas? Undiscovered native cats, maybe, but the evidence looks slim. Which leaves us with exotics.
The way I see it is like is we have four possibilities. One, it’s an undiscovered native species. But as I understand it, there is no history of large wild cats being seen by aboriginal natives. This seems very odd to me if there was an indigenous species roaming about. Then we have the theory that it is a supersized feral cat. Then you have to explain how a feral cat evolved over several hundred years to essentially fill the niche of a big cat. Sure, there are subspecies and whatnot, but what people are reporting is a decidedly large cat no matter what subspecies it is. We are talking about a large size range whether it is a panther, leopard, or whatever. Bottom line, very large cat that some have equated in size to a panther, and if we believe it evolved from a feral cat, then we are to believe it made this size jump in a very short amount of time relatively speaking. Then we have our exotic theory which for reasons mentioned by ozestrange, has its own problems. The mutation or manifestation of gigantism, etc is plausible and a very sound possible explanation, but does this kind of mutation surface to the point where you have multiple specimens causing multiple sightings? Or are we to beleive it is a single mutated specimen or a sudden evolutionary jump? Yes this happens in normal evolution, but remember that this takes a very long amount of time.
For these kind of genes to surface and cause sudden mutations on this scale is a bit unusual. So what is going on here? I have seen reasons on why it can’t be this or can’t be that, but I’d rather start thinking about reasons why it CAN be one thing or the other. I want to get to the bottom of this just as much as anyone.
Another little thought about mutations is that we also have to remember that a lot of the mutations that occur on the path to evolutionary advantage turn out not to be beneficial for the species. The vast amount of genetic mutations that crop up are not going to be any advantage to the species and a lot are actually detrimental and therefore will not be carried on effectively within the gene pool. This is one reason why these things take so long under normal circumnstances. Sure these things happen quickly with one celled organisms and some insects, but we are talking about cats here. For these mutations to be advantageous enough to catch on and spread into a breeding population of cats with, in this instance size increase, there would have to be the right mutation at the right time with the right environmental circumstances. And it would have to be circumstances that were very conducive for the mutation to become so prevelant so quickly. Sorry I am rambling but this topic is fascinating and ozestrange has given me a lot to think about. Very interesting discussion!
Also add to the fact that from the information above, cats were not being documented outside of settled areas until 1884. When did large cat sightings start? That would mean from the time that cats arrived in Australia until the first big cats were reported, they mutated or evolved into a large form. So I feel one thing we can do is weight the probability that these cats that arrived in Australia mutated unbeknownst to any natives in a short amount of time to be the size they are presently reported at against the probability that perhaps the first observation of a big cat mentioned in relation to the arrival of circuses was false. If some of the later sightings of big cats coincide with the arrival of exotics and this first report was incorrect, then it is persuasive in favor of exotics.
There are several parts of the world where Felis catus has established large feral populations. Some of those areas have other indigenous carnivores that are larger than cats, other areas have none. In none of those areas, over the sometimes thousands of years that feral cats have been living there, has Felis catus developed giant size. Even Maine Coon Cats, the largest of the “forest breeds” of domestic cats, have been bred selectively for their very large size; the original stock from which they arose was about half the size of the modern, selectively bred Maine Coons.
Although the most accepted theory for the origin of the domestic cat Felis catus is that they evolved almost exclusively from African wildcats Felis sylvestris lybica, I disagree with that theory. I believe that the African wildcat (Felis libyca), the European wildcat (Felis sylvestris), and the Asian wildcat (Felis ornata), which are currently classified as “major subspecies” of Felis sylvestris, should each be classified as separate but closely related species, with intergrading occurring between the species near the edges of their major ranges. Furthermore, even though domestic cats can interbreed with all of these species (as well as with several other species of small cats), they are distinct enough in both appearance and behavior to be placed in their own separate species, Felis catus, rather than considering them a subspecies of Felis sylvestris.
I believe that the large forest breeds of cats such as the Maine Coon Cat, the Norwegian Forest Cat, and the Siberian Forest Cat (which are very similar to one another) descend primarily from the European wildcat, Felis sylvestris. As humans migrated and immigrated to various areas and countries they took their cats with them, and those cats interbred with the local wildcats wherever they went, so African wilcats figure prominently in the makeup of all domestic cats, but the large northern and mountain breeds show evidence of European wildcat ancestry as well.
Furthermore I don’t see how anyone can look at Felis chaus, the Jungle or Reed cat, and not think, “Wow, there is one of the ancestors of the Siamese and other oriental breeds”. Jungle cats are about half again as tall as domestic cats but they are longer-legged and of slender build. They interbreed with domestics and in fact may have been tamed by the ancient Egyptians even earlier than Felis libyca.
Several other small cat species undoubtedly contributed their genes to the domestic cat species over the centuries and in various locales, but there seems to be a broadly optimum size range for the Felis species, from about 5 to about 30 pounds, and animals above or below that range exist but are very uncommon.
Domestic cats are also proportioned much differently than big cats. You can’t just magnify a domestic cat, or a feral domestic cat, and get an animal that looks like a big cat, or one that is able to survive in the wild. This difference can be illustrated dramatically by taking a good, full body photo of, say, a leopard or a puma, and a good, full body photo of a domestic cat and enlarging it so that the cats in both photos are the same size. The differences between the big cat and the domestic are immediately obvious, and it is easy to see that an animal the size of a leopard, but with the proportions of a domestic cat, would probably not be able to exist and breed, probably not even in captivity, and almost certainly not in the wild.
Big cats have proportionately much stronger, stockier legs to support their large bodies. Their heads and especially their jaws are much more massive than those of small cats. I once held an 8 week old lion cub and a 9 week old domestic kitten on my lap at the same time. The difference in their proportions was striking, especially about the head and mouth. The domestic cat also has small paws for its size, compared to a big cat.
Leopards and pumas that are at the extreme lower limits of their species’ size are still proportioned like big cats. That body type is ideally suited to preying upon ungulates, just as the body type of the small cats is ideally suited to hunting their rodent prey.
Even the medium-sized cats are differently proportioned than small cats – and there are no large cat species that are proportioned like the medium-sized cats, either. Medium-sized cats are either built tall, short-backed and leggy like lynxes, servals, and caracals, or they are built long and low, with big paws and short legs, like Golden Cats, Ocelots, and Clouded Leopards.
I don’t think that even hybrid vigor could account for the reported size of the cryptid cats from Australia and New Zealand. Big cats evolved to hunt large prey, and they are beautifully suited to that. Domestic cats and their close relatives evolved to hunt – mainly – rodents. I think that the big cats in Australia and New Zealand are either introduced big cat species such as pumas or leopards, or possibly stabilized big-cat hybrids, that are living and breeding in the wild, or big cat species that are native to Indonesia, such as black leopards or black clouded leopards, that have fairly recently expanded their ranges to Australia and perhaps New Zealand, or – possibly but not likely – an unknown native species such as large carnivorous marsupials like Thylacaleo spp. or even an unknown native cat species.
By the way, the photos that I have seen of the so-called “giant feral cats” that have been shot recently in Australia were quite obviously staged and posed to try to make the cats appear much larger than they really were. Measuring a cat’s or any other animal’s stretched skin gives a completely inaccurate size for the animal. The operative phrase in that statement is STRETCHED SKIN.
I’ll believe in a giant Felis catus when I see it with my own eyes under circumstances that are not condusive to fakery or exageration.
“By the way, the photos that I have seen of the so-called “giant feral cats” that have been shot recently in Australia were quite obviously staged’
And what photos from your vigorous research have you looked at.?
Gee, the photos I have shown on my blog link from Steve tembys footage show a cat near a roo, this is off video.How could anyone stage that. ? 🙂
animatronics..yeah that explains it.
Or.. Gary Blounts footage, shows an animal going up a log,later gary had his wife lay on the log for comparative shots-once again, big moggie around 1.2 metre body.
Or if you followed the link you would have seen a 870 mm body, no doubt staged again.
But we also have the still of the body, damn..if only you asked instead of jumping to conclusions. 🙂
Or , if you actually knew what you were talking about you would have seen the kurt engel still taken next to the caravan…if you think thats staged and is a normal cat.. prove it.I went there and measured eveything. 🙂
And show us a shot of any fcatus from anywhere in the world that looks like that staged or not. easy eh.
And no, thats not the still showing a scale range, we have another one where it is against the post with nails in the post… that will be in the book.
Why give everything away for free to net “researchers” to attempt, badly, to pull apart. 🙂
“Measuring a cat’s or any other animal’s stretched skin gives a completely inaccurate size for the animal”.
No kidding, did you just read that.. 🙂
Thats why the photos of the animal we have when it was skinned , are longer than the skin measurement shown in the video.
Bom Boom.. LOL
“The operative phrase in that statement is STRETCHED SKIN.”
See above.
The operative term is “research/questions” then come to a conclusion.
“I’ll believe in a giant Felis catus when I see it with my own eyes under circumstances that are not condusive to fakery or exageration. ‘
What is mindboggling is that you think anyone cares what your humourous “conclusions” are. 🙂
mike
Ozestrange, I think that you protest too much.
I have yet to see anything, anywhere, online, in a book, or anywhere else, that convinces me that there are giant “moggies” as you call them, in Australia or anywhere else.
I have not seen anything purporting to show a giant Felis catus that looks real, including those references that I have been able to access from the ones you provided in your posts.
Why the nasty attitude? Your opinion is that giant feral cats exist, my opinion is that they do not. Time and future discoveries, or lack of them, will prove one or the other correct.
“No kidding, did you just read that.. ?”
Reads like SOMEbody needs a diaper changed…
The person doth protest too much, methinks. (to paraphrase the Bard)
Well, in the words of that proverbial old timer long ago “I seen the Elephant.”
The skin in the video is of good size, and probably from a fair-sized animal, perhaps as large as a Maine Coon cat (they get pretty big), but certainly not as large as the videographer would like us to think.
The shots of the human hands in comparison to the skin of the head bear that out – big for felis catus, but I’ve seen photos of live Maine Coon cats as large.
The shots of the skull measurements? OBVIOUSLY staged to make the skull look larger. You see the skull well back and blurry, but that measuring tape is VERY clear and much closer to the camera. Look at the skull actually in the hands. Unless that is a child of no more than 10 or 12 years, that’s a skull that is fairly large for fcatus, but not unheard of, because the hands show you comparative size. Large, but not freakishly so for the species.
Got a link to the other photos you cited? I’d like to see those, too.
“Ozestrange, I think that you protest too much.”
I “work” in these fringe areas.
It costs me time and money.
Besides float around on different boards, you do what exactly.?
If I am wrong, answer the questions I put to you and show me a web site/information..anything, which shows you have done anything in any cryptid/biological field.
>Why the nasty attitude?
1/Just having fun tiger.
2/The “staged” comment got up my nose, but I admit , you dont know what you are talking about with the photos/subject, or you would have answered my questions.
So I should not have been so humourously huffy with you. 🙂
>Your opinion is that giant feral cats exist,
You win, they are actually leopards,jaguars and pumas.
“Reads like SOMEbody needs a diaper changed…”
And thats a “grown up” response. Wow 🙂
I had fun with you as well, so you would not feel left out. 🙂
“but certainly not as large as the videographer would like us to think.”
Thats pretty funny.I film the skin and have a tape measure next to it.
And a “net reseacher” implies I somehow was being dodgy.
How in gods name would you have filmed it.???
“but I’ve seen photos of live Maine Coon cats as large.”
Thats great, I was just showing a large feral cat.
“The shots of the skull measurements? OBVIOUSLY staged”
Yep, I staged a photo of a feral cat skull that was a few ml longer than a normal feral cat skull and thats about it.I then brought the body back and had that examined from a vet from the rural lands protection board, I then had a copy of the skull made and that was mailed to a associate professor of biology.
This was all done for me to promote this massive $$$ making hoax and I can dominate the world now with it.
I did that for fame and money. 🙂
You are good… LOL
‘Look at the skull actually in the hands. Unless that is a child of no more than 10 or 12 years, that’s a skull that is fairly large for fcatus”
Yeah, we agree.But no.. your fine analytical background has caught me out… again, because if the hands are mine, the stills/video are not faked.Are you following ?
Probably not…
You cannot have it both ways…
Therefore…I actually went and got a 12 year old child to hold the skull, to compliment the faked video with the FAKED tape measurement. 🙂
Damn..caught out again.
All this for $ and fame. LOL
“Large, but not freakishly so for the species.”
Exactly, see, that 10 minutes of net research and a book is paying off now. 🙂
“Got a link to the other photos you cited? I’d like to see those, too.”
Since you background does not appear to be in logic/biology/photography/measurement/cryptids then why would I bother ..
Or if it is, then prove it…..
At least you must have a sense of humour. 🙂
Your net “analysis”, as ridiculous and illogical as it was , is that I faked everything, I faked the video/faked the stills/faked the measurements, and you want to look at more fake stuff from me. 🙂
Now thats weird….
Hmmmmm, these exchanges always seem to take on a nasty, accusatory tone.
If you’re accusing someone of lying/faking something, which it appears you are doing CASReaves/Kittenz, then you’re way off the mark.
Nobody said this cat was a panther-sized wildlife destructor, just that it was, by Australian standards, an abnormally large domestic cat, which seems to support the notion that feral cats in Australia may be experiencing a growth spurt – and in doing so, no doubt impacting on native wildlife.
The breed you mention, the Maine Coone, is only a very recent introduction to Australia (imported and bred since 1997 or thereabouts, I believe) and still very $$$ ($600-$1000), thereby making it a very unlikely supplier to the gene pool at this stage.
The hands holding the skull were man hands (no, not Seinfeld-style big lady hands *grin*), so it’s a reasonably large skull. And I don’t think the videographer is trying to indicate the skin/skull are bigger than they actually are – just making the point that these are big cats for the Australian bush (even if the skin is pegged out for drying), and much bigger than the kinds of feral cats many of us are used to seeing.
Have a look at more photos of the cat skull here.
Looks like no fakery was involved at all – apology?
Don’t go confusing this cat with another that was shot in Victoria the year before. That cat was german shepherd-sized at least, but also appears to have been a feral cat of monstrous proportions – and no, the pictures weren’t staged, though they have been the subject of colourful debate now for the past 12-18 months.
Informed debate/constructive criticism is a great thing, and we all learn from discussions like this but don’t drag it down by using words such as fake/hoax/lie as you’re making judgment calls about people on this board. These same people are willing to share the things they have uncovered during their own research/field trips so that discussions like this can take place.
I personally believe hybrids/mutant ferals are much more likely than a secretive thylacoleo population, but I enjoy hearing what other people have to say.
Instead of throwing rocks, I’d like to see more people proffer their theories for what lies behind the proliferation of big cat sightings in Australia/NZ, and put up some supoorting ‘evidence’ for why they think that must be the case.
I have made no judgments about anybody who has posted in this thread, except to ask ozestrange why he or she takes such a nasty attitude toward anyone who questions the possibility that giant feral domestic cats exist.
I did not say that I think that Maine Coon Cats are any part of the Australian feral cat population. Nor do I. What I said is that I believe that Maine Coon Cats are descended primarily from Felis sylvetris, the European wildcat, and that their large size is a result of decades of selective breeding by cat fanciers.
I did say that all of the photos and videos that I have seen of anything purported to be giant feral cats appear to have been staged to try to make the cat appear larger than it really is. That is nothing more nor less than the truth. All of the photos that I have seen of living animals appear to be cats of more or less normal size, and those of animals that have been killed are invariably framed in a way as to try to make the cat appear much larger than it is.
The ”giant” skull in the photos looks like it is between 3 1/2 to 4 inches long, going by the ruler lying in front of it – a good-sized cat but certainly not what I would call a giant.
If the reference to a German Shepherd-sized cat is a reference to the ”Gippsland cat”, then yes, I definitely believe that the size of the cat is exaggerated in those photos. The photos of the Gippsland Cat appear to be of a large cat, but certainly not German Shepherd-sized, unless the German Shepherd is a 3-month-old puppy. The fact that only the tail of that animal was preserved for further study is a red flag as to it doubtful authenticity. If it was so unusually large that someone wanted to have a biologist examine it, why was only the tail saved, and in such a way as to cast doubt on its true length?
There are plenty of physiological reasons that make it unlikely that feral cats reach the sizes attributed to some of the cats described here. I am not saying that there are no large cats or catlike animals in Australia; I just do not believe that the large cats are giant versions of Felis catus.
ozestrange has made comments questioning my qualifications to comment here, questioning my occupation, questioning my observations, in additon to the comments that he or she has made ridiculing others who have posted in this thread . I find it strange that ozestrange feels like he or she has to be so defensive as to hurl insults at people who are regular posters on this forum when they question whether giant feral cats exist and offer alternative (and more plausible) suggestions as to what the Australian Big Cats really are. Open, honest, speculative discussion is, to me, what Cryptomundo is all about. It’s what separates Cryptomundo from some of the other cryptozoological forums that I visit. ozestrange alludes to a future book and to some photos that have not yet been released. “These photos will be released later this year” sounds a little too much like all the promised photos of Bigfoot that never actually materialize. Perhaps that is the reason for all the venom.
By the way, I am not sure what Ruby Lang means when she says “CASReaves/Kittenz”. My post name is Kittenz. CASREAVES is another person, whose opinions are his or her own.
Hi Kittenz, my apologies for being so hard on you. 🙂
“I did say that all of the photos and videos that I have seen of anything purported to be giant feral cats appear to have been staged to try to make the cat appear larger than it really is.”
What photos and videos are you actually talking about other than the kurt cat you mention later on.?
What photos and videos support you contention there are exotics in OZ.?
Australian Big Cats
If you believe the Temby video/stills were staged then I am baffled how he could have done this and would like to know how this happened.
There are some stills near showing the cat near a roo. It is not a normal house cat, it is a big feral, take a look at the still of the footprint.
If you think that is an exotic cat, then fair enough.
If you think its a staged shot with a house cat then tell us how he did it ,and what house cat leaves footprints like that anyway.
>The ”giant” skull in the photos looks like it is between 3 1/2 to 4 inches long, going by the ruler lying in front of it – a good-sized cat but certainly not >what I would call a giant.
Its just a big moggie..we believe there are bigger.
>If the reference to a German Shepherd-sized cat is a reference to the ”Gippsland cat”, then yes, I definitely believe that the size of the cat is >exaggerated in those photos. The photos of the Gippsland Cat appear to be of a large cat, but certainly not German Shepherd-sized, unless the German >Shepherd is a 3-month-old puppy.
Gippsland Phantom Cat
You must have some interesting sized german shepherds in ? because I dont know of any 3 month old shepherds in the world that can grow that big.
I wont get aggro with you on that case(again) because you could not have known much about it.
I brought the case to the media/I hassled the shooter who had no interest in cats/I examined the negatives/film/camera/tail/measured the site/arranged for the scientists to examine the tail,take dna/question the hunter.
We have never released all the photos.
The best shot has the animal lying next to the vertical support beam with nails next to it.
That proved to us that the hunter was honest.
With cryptid, poorly framed, fuzzy photos are the norm and this case was no different.
” The fact that only the tail of that animal was preserved for further study is a red flag as to it doubtful authenticity.”
If you dont investigate reports, that is an apt comment.But I have to take what I was given in all these cases..
How could he have faked the tails length and width was always the problem…
Stretching…no..according to all the taxidermists you have to get a skin fresh-you can get about 5% increase and maybe 10% if you were really lucky before it breaks.
But it leaves the peg marks where you have done this.
There were none on the tail.
Most hunters/farmers who shoot monster ferals/large cats, whatever you feel comfortable calling them, dont even have photos to prove their claims.
But others do..
” If it was so unusually large that someone wanted to have a biologist examine it, why was only the tail saved, and in such a way as to cast doubt on its true length?”
Sadly, in the real world of cryptids..it rarely works like that.
Many times, ignorant farmers/hunters do the stupidest things with evidence.
The hunter never gave a damn..his words..”it was just a cat”.
It was important to us…but not to him.
” I just do not believe that the large cats are giant versions of Felis catus.”
fair enough..what proof have you of exotics in OZ.
“ozestrange has made comments questioning my qualifications to comment here, questioning my occupation, questioning my observations,”
I was interested to see if you had any background at all in any of these fields.
I asked you several questions as well.
My apologises if you were offended by me asking , what for me, are pertinent questions.
Everyone can have an opinion, thats true…but not all opinions are equal.
Thats why I asked… 🙂
“in additon to the comments that he or she has made ridiculing others who have posted in this thread ”
This is the problem.If you did something in these fields..and posted up some of your “results” and someone like “CASReaves” said you had faked it, are you trying to tell me you would not get defensive.???
Plezzzzz…
Of course I will ridicule someone who says that.
I look forward to his apology since some more photos were posted and proved his allegations were false.
Just kidding… 🙂
“I find it strange that ozestrange feels like he or she has to be so defensive as to hurl insults at people who are regular posters on this forum when they question whether giant feral cats exist and offer alternative (and more plausible) suggestions as to what the Australian Big Cats really are.”
How does being a “regular” poster(as if that means something in the real world)l stop me from asking questions or defending cases I have been involved in.
The only true “insults” I hurled were at people who implied a case was fraudulent that I was actively involved in and they knew little to nothing about.
If you actually read all the posts I have agreed several times that it could be exotics, I have no problem being wrong in these areas.It has happened before and will happen again I am sure.
“These photos will be released later this year sounds a little too much like all the promised photos of Bigfoot that never actually materialize. Perhaps that is the reason for all the venom.”
Venom…? read the posts properly please.Its rough and tumble sometimes.
Listen, the sasquatch analogy is mildy insulting. 🙂
Why would anyone with half a brain give away all their work/results for free on the internet that have taken over 5 years to accumulate.
And cost us thousands of $$$ to gather…
Would you.?
I can go to a zoo and see big cats…so the possibility of escaped big cats is not a big leap in logic is it.
I cannot go anywhere to see a sasquatch, or for that matter any evidence for them.
Peace now…. 🙂
Again, another discussion where people are questioning another’s expertise or flat out being insulting. Ozestrange, you have no idea who is here on these posts. To try and play the expert card is a bit extreme as some of those who you poke fun at or question may be experts too. You are not the only one who has gone out and done field work here nor the only one who knows what they are talking about. I don’t feel you are wrong to assert your opinion, but not everyyone here is just someone floating around to different boards. When people get on these boards get on here and act all high and mighty it is annoying because some of the people on here are very experienced and knowledgable. I myself have degrees in biology and zoology and I have done field work in Japan. I am not some fool sitting behind his computer. and neither are a lot of the other posters here. It’d be nice to see a little respect shown to others, that’s all I think people mean when they say they sensed venom from you.
“Again, another discussion where people are questioning another’s expertise or flat out being insulting.”
Exactly…but “CASReaves ” learnt his lesson… 🙂
” Ozestrange, you have no idea who is here on these posts.”
I care about facts and honesty..thats about it.
If someone makes a comment about something I am involved in, then sometimes I do get emotional.
Thats wrong…
” To try and play the expert card”
There are no “experts” in these fields.
‘You are not the only one who has gone out and done field work here nor the only one who knows what they are talking about.”
God forbid I was the only one doing field work. 🙂
“When people get on these boards get on here and act all high and mighty it is annoying because some of the people on here are very experienced and knowledgable.”
I assume you are referring to me….”high and mighty”,no…. just angry and weird… 🙂
I dont think any of the other people have your qualifications…as for the bit about “are very experienced and knowledgable” I am sure there are.
“I myself have degrees in biology and zoology”
Excellent..luckily for me I was never rude to you then… 🙂
” I am not some fool sitting behind his computer. and neither are a lot of the other posters here.”
Once again, please read the posts..I was never rude to you.CASReaves aside, I am sure you are right..
” It’d be nice to see a little respect shown to others, that’s all I think people mean when they say they sensed venom from you. ”
The “venom” came from a series of bad hair days and I should never have posted when I was in such a foul mood.
My apologises….
I apologised to Kittenz for being rude to him. : )
ozestrange, there is a lot of thought-provoking material in your posts.
I don’t agree with you on every point, but your posts are very interesting.
Whether it’s moggies, marsupial lions, or big cats, there’s something unusual stalking around the Australian bush.
It’s going to be really interesting to follow the search for whatever it is as it progresses.
Thanks Kittenz
I have started my “stop being an obnoxious, know it all smart arse” medication so I feel much better. 🙂
At the moment we believe there are moggies, marsupial lions (some form ..maybe), and big cats(maybe puma-leopard…and the list keeps getting longer and weirder…the more we learn..the more complicated it gets….
We have seen kill sites where the animal is seen next to the killed calf,something came back and removed the body….which is not too weird…but then the body was returned(HUH)..thats weird..but then the body was removed again.This is in central Victoria.
The farmer said “Its almost like its taking the piss out of us”
🙁
Allright ozestrange. I think it is very big of you to apologize to the other posters. Thanks for explaining your position and thank your for your input in this discussion. You have a lot of interesting things to say, although like Kittenz, I don’t always agree with them. I have no doubt you are knowledgeable in this area. Good luck on your research and I hope you can get closer to the bottom of what is out there. I am sorry I got a bit snippy myself up there in my post. I think sometimes these discussions cause tensions to run high, but all in all, this was a very fascinating discussion.
For the record, ozestrange, I am female, although I flatly refuse to post photos to prove it.
Also for the record, I am not an alter-ego of Kittenz, though her/his posts tend to be generally well-reasoned, intelligent and polite. (hmmmmmmmm)
I did NOT insult you, but if you are going to insist that a felis catus is as large as a German Shepherd, then you are going to have to expect (and accept) skepticism.
Oh – and just exactly WHAT “lesson” did I “learnt?” That you abuse anyone who doubts your assertions? Well, yeah, I DID learn that one, along with several attendant ones, also concerning you, which I will not air on the board.
Congratulations on getting back on your meds. Let us know when the prescription runs out.
“For the record, ozestrange, I am female, although I flatly refuse to post photos to prove it.”
er…okay….
“I did NOT insult you”
Of course not..fraud is a fun accusation..
“but certainly not as large as the videographer would like us to think.”
Thats insulting.I leave a tape measure on the animal, The animal is flat.
I asked you how you would have measured it.
Silence.
If I had hung it vertically then someone would have said it was dodgy somehow…either way I cannot win.. 🙂
“The shots of the skull measurements? OBVIOUSLY staged to make the skull look larger”
Once again, thats insulting.
So… photos were posted by Ruby with a ruler lying flat right next to the skull.
That proved I was not trying anything with the skull size.
If you can suggest a more precise method of showing the length of the skull then please tell me.
It was just a large fcatus skull.. no more.. no less.
Did you apologise for suggesting fraud and admit being wrong..
Of course not… 🙂
“but if you are going to insist that a felis catus is as large as a German Shepherd”
I believe that most of the animals shown on videos in Australia and called “panthers” are actually fcatus and not anything from the panthera family at all.
Because most of them appear to have short tails, small heads and pointed ears..
If you think any video shown in Australia is of a felid from the panthera genus or even puma concolour..then please tell me. 🙂
“then you are going to have to expect (and accept) skepticism.”
No problems.
And when you make accusations that are easily refuted
you can expect(and accept)skepticism.
“and just exactly WHAT “lesson” did I “learnt?” ”
Obviously none. 🙂
“which I will not air on the board.”
Air away…I will correct anything you wish to air..then we can be friends.. 🙂
“Let us know when the prescription runs out. ”
🙂
Monster feral cats being mistaken for panthers, may be sometimes..but I doubt it.
I for one would need more proof.
Where are the bodies?
Ozestrange, the skull was interesting but maybe not related to the big cat phenomena.
CasReaves, what can I say?
You make accusations of fraud…but dont understand why that is being rude.How is that possible?
Then when ozestrange provides more information that corrected your ill thought out slurs the least you could have done was actually admitted you were wrong.
Do you think not answering questions makes you look anything other than foolish?
Then you imply you have some dirt and you are holding back from showing it.
Can you go any lower than you already have proven capable of?
I am a girl too, how that is relevent to any of this is beyond me.
Ahhh, yes, ozestrange has admitted he was a tad harsh. A good start, and nice to see that we can all agree to disagree *grin* we’re human after all.
Kittenz, my bad for mixing you up with CASReaves. You’re obviously a more mature debater. I think I mashed a few of the comments together too in my reply above, so I apologise for that oversight.
CASReaves – meeeeeeow! – mellow out girl and play the ball, not the man (ie don’t get personal in debates).
Especially don’t accuse someone of fraud and then wonder aloud at their sensitivity over it, and their defending of their reputation.
Good manners and good sense seem to fly out the window on the Internet – if some people are big enough to apologise for rudeness, you could at least do the same.
And how is your gender relevant? I don’t think anyone wants to see photos of you – it’s the Internet luv, and hardly proof of who you are these days 😉
Nice to see everyone getting along – and great to hear what other people think about what might be at the root of the phenomenon, regardless of whether we agree.
Times up Casleaves
Dr no…. 🙂
No answers to my questions.
No admission of making a mistake.
No apology.
No idea whats just happened to you.
No idea what we are talking about.
No integrity.
No dirt, wow, what a surprise that was.. 🙂
Whats funnier…that you dont actually realise what just happened to you,..or your just going to pretend nothing did. 🙂
You remind me of that saying …” just another nobody, from out of nowhere..with nothing to say.”
I have a feeling this sort of thing has happened before to you Luv, which is why you are so angry…..
Another lesson 🙂
Bye
Hey guys, Started reading most of the comments then couldn’t be bothered when I got down to the bickering.
I live in Victoria in Australia, most of the big cat sightings come out of east Gippslands or the Grampians. There was a rumor that near the Grampians there was a military training facility (I think WW2) which had a couple of black panthers as mascots, when the company disbanded, not wanting to kill them they released them… I find this hard to believe, but thats the commonly accepted lore of townsfolk.
If I’m thinking of the panther that was apparently shot and was in the papers it turned out to be a hoax, the panther was strung up closer to the camera to make it appear larger, it was a big cat but DNA said it was domestic.
I have seen the short video of the black cat from eastern Victoria (other side of state from grampians), and while the camera work was a little shaky relatively in focus. Judging by the size relative to a few small spinifex grasses i would say it was close to a panther size hard to judge as there wasn’t much to give a size comparison of it, and the plaster casts of the footprints defiantly suggest a large cat.
I’ve also spent a fair bit of time in the bush around lake Glen Maggie, there was 3 sightings in the 6 months while I was working out there, 2 were rather unreliable people, 1 was from a young kid, 1 from truck driver, 1 was from a hunter and 1 from a respected beekeeper who spotted it while transporting his bees. (They move bees at night apparently)
We have a ridiculous large feral cat population here in Victoria. Around the campsite I worked at we have 10 traps baited daily and we would trap and destroy 5-15 cats a week, The ferals are alot larger than domestics for some reason, and super aggressive. I have seen cats the size of cattle dogs that I wouldn’t like to come across in a dark alley.
Thylocean sightings on mainland Australia usually turn out to be a starved German Shepard which has a similar elongated appearance. I highly doubt the Thylocean would survive after the rabbit invasion, however I definitely wouldn’t rule out the Thylocean in Tasmania. It wasn’t declared functionally extinct that long ago, and due to low human population, highly inaccessible habitat and shy nature, I believe there are a few survivors out there.
Redstagg, good post! Very interesting to here about the population of ferals you talked about. Thanks for your input!
reddstagg,
That IS an interesting post.
I can understand why they would move bees at night; they are probably quieter and less aggressive then. I have relatives who work with bees, and they try to move theirs at dusk or on cloudy days too.
I’m confused about the thylocean that you mentioned… surely you mean thylacine and not thylacaeo? Because to my understanding thylacaleo has never been known as anything other than an extinct animal, but thylacines became extinct on mainland Australia just a few thousand years ago. Or is there another animal called thylocean? I am not as familiar with marsupial carnivores as with the placental ones.
Hi Redstagg,
Shame you didn’t keep reading – amid the ‘bickering’ (some might term it ‘defending a reputation’ *grin*) – was a reference to the cat that was shot in Victoria.
It wasn’t a hoax – and it wasn’t a panther. But instead of regurgitating the whole spiel again, I’ll leave you to research it on the net. Why not start here.
The other footage you mentioned was interesting, and I believe it was probably the same size as the cat that was shot. I think we’re going to see many more of these cats.
Well, Oze, I have one of those things called a management position, which means that I don’t have time to come in here and play with you every day. Free time is not as easy for me to come by as it seems to be for you. I do not doubt that many feral cats do indeed grow larger than the norm, I simply do not believe that they are as large as you’d like everyone to think.
In the interest of winnowing out the chaff, I’ll be finding playmates with something more interesting to talk about.
I never said I had any dirt on you. What I said was that I have learned that anyone who doesn’t buy every word you post as gospel garners abuse from you, as well as your packmate, Ruby.
Other lessons learned also concern you, but you honestly do not interest me enough for me to bother with you any longer. (yes, I’ve seen the site you and Ruby Lang have set up, and that isn’t really any more than more of the same old thing).
One last statement and I will not visit this thread again as I refuse to waste any more time or energy on it:
You frankly strike me as being full of something that would be better used on a garden, and you get upset if someone calls you on your assertions, regardless of the fact that they merely express their own opinions. COULD I be wrong about you? SURE – but you’d have to prove it and you have lost all hope of doing that as far as I’m concerned. Do I think that feral cats can grow larger than their domestic counterparts? Sure. ARE the cats in Oz Maine Coon cats? Probably not, but as large as the Maine Coon is, it came from smaller breeds, so why CAN’T ferals in Oz get larger? No reason they can’t, but I refuse to believe that fcatus gets as large as a GSD without seeing concrete proof with my own eyes. (I don’t believe in the bogeyman, either).
“I never said I had any dirt on you. What I said was that I have learned that anyone who doesn’t buy every word you post as gospel garners abuse from you, as well as your packmate, Ruby.”
Ouch CASReaves – packmate? I expect something better from someone in management 😉 You didn’t cop abuse from anyone, you copped a dressing down for being rude and accusing someone of lying.
I respect that most people on this thread will disagree on what big cats here may be/if they’re real etc, and I’m enthralled by their various reasons for doing so and appreciate intelligent responses – I don’t think anyone can say they’re categorically right as none of us really know (though some might think they do – myself included in that).
If you’re waiting to see an enormous fcatus with your own eyes then you better get off the computer and go bush, because no number of video sequences or photos will convince you, nor expert opinion.
Good luck in your search.