Yowieland
Posted by: Craig Woolheater on August 23rd, 2006
Aussie cryptozoologist Mike Williams weighs in with a guest blog for Cryptomundo.
Mike’s article in the April issue of Fortean Times, co-authored with Ruby Lang, was profiled here on Cryptomundo in March. That article, titled Yowieland, is now available in its entirety on the Fortean Times website.
Illustration: Xavier Lemmens
After spending the past six years “in search of” various cryptozoological oddities – big cats, yowies and Tasmanian Tigers, to name just a few – we have come to some interesting conclusions about our quarries.
In a recent issue of Fortean Times we shared our thoughts about the Blue Mountains yowie in “Yowieland”, where we interviewed witnesses there about their experiences.
Before we go much further, we would like to preface our findings by saying: we wish it was a flesh-and-blood creature, we really do!
But sadly, the more we discover about this man-beast enigma, the more likely it seems that it may in fact belong to another realm entirely.
While not everyone is convinced of the creature’s “paranormality” in Australia (or indeed, elsewhere in the world), we found sufficient anomalies in the creature’s reported behaviour and descriptions to cast it firmly into the “non corporeal” basket.
Local witnesses Jerry and Sue O’Connor, who live in the heart of “yowie country”, are convinced the creature is not unlike a nature spirit of sorts.
Their introduction to the creature was sudden and scary – a bloodcurdling roar from the edge of their backyard (their property merges with the Blue Mountains wilderness). From then on, the strange hairy primate-like creatures visited the couple most nights. But that wasn’t all:
Footprints were also found on the couple’s property after some of these visitations, which Jerry photographed and cast. The couple, who regularly bushwalk, have also spotted strange footprints along the fire trails and tracks that criss-cross the area, leading down into gullies, waterfalls and caves. Despite these monster-like physical traces, they remain convinced the creature is more faerie-like than fierce physical beast.
Aboriginal lore supports the existence of smaller hairy men in Australia, the yuuri (pronounced ‘yawri’, not unlike yowie) or ‘brown jack’, which fulfill a similar role to that of European elves and leprechauns – they guard certain places, grant favours and play tricks on people. The yowie certainly seems to have more in common with these creatures than they do conventional flesh-and-blood primates or relict hominids.
Not to mention the bizarre physical abnormalities which have puzzled us no end – with all of the casts we have collected of “yowie” footprints (three, four and five-toed), we have found those variations in morphology do not occur in any other known species. How else can they be explained other than paranormal?
But, we hear you say, they’re leaving FOOTPRINTS. Only flesh-and-blood creatures could be leaving physical traces! Sure, generally that’s true, but in the world of the paranormal nothing is clear-cut.
Poltergeists have been known to leave physical traces too, and no one believes they are physical entities (despite there being a school of thought that points to an unknowing human catalyst).
What we’re trying to say here is that flesh-and-blood supporters say the animal exists because it leaves physical effects on the environment and can be perceived by humans and animals.
We are arguing that because this is the only “evidence” then the hairy men cannot actually be normal animals in any sense of the word.
The belief that they are “just really good at hiding“ is negated by the question, “like what other normal animals?”.
It’s a bit like ufologists who say ”one day we will have the crashed saucer” . Flesh-and-blood believers have to say “one day we will have a body”. And in both cases, it’s probably never going to happen!
Authors Tony Healy and Paul Cropper (of Out Of The Shadows fame) have extensively documented the case of the O’Conners and hundreds of others in their new book The Yowie Files, due to be released by Anomalist Books later this year.
One of the authors, Tony Healy, has been particularly vocal about his conclusions about the yowie in the past, which we recount in our article:
“If we reject everything about the yowie that smacks of the paranormal we’d have to sweep 20 per cent of the accumulated data under the carpet,” Healy told the Sydney 2001 Myths and Monsters cryptzoology conference. “After 25 years on the trail I really suspect that the American Indians, the Australian Aborigines and some of the whacked-out American researchers are right – that is, that we’re dealing with shape-shifting phantoms here that will probably remain beyond human comprehension.“
We think Tony’s “on the money” with his assessment (reached after more than 20 years’ researching reports of Australia’s own “Bigfoot”, who could be better situated to comment after collecting more than 300 cases?), which more or less echoes our own stance.
Where are the indisputable video sequences? The photos? The bodies? The DNA samples?
Why are these man-beasts turning up everywhere, in the most unlikely places – including, in recent years, the heart of the UK? In the millions of man-hours spent on the ground by recreational and professional hunters, why hasn’t one animal been shot?
Certainly, many authors have explored the idea that Bigfoot-type creatures are more fantastical than flesh, including Peter Gutilla’s The Bigfoot Files, Nick Redfern’s Three Men Seeking Monsters and Jack Lapseritis’ The Psychic Sasquatch.
Some might see this hypothesis as a bit of a cop-out, a convenient solution to an enduring mystery, a “catch all” answer to put an end to the spirited debate about what this creature truly may be.
So we leave off here with these words: “We wish they were flesh and blood…one day we hope someone will prove us wrong.” Until then, we’re off with the faeries…
Mike Williams and Ruby Lang are actively researching yowie reports in the Blue Mountains and further afield. They can be contacted by email at [email protected] or via their website Strange Nation.
Co-founder of Cryptomundo in 2005.
I have appeared in or contributed to the following TV programs, documentaries and films:
OLN's Mysterious Encounters: "Caddo Critter", Southern Fried Bigfoot, Travel Channel's Weird Travels: "Bigfoot", History Channel's MonsterQuest: "Swamp Stalker", The Wild Man of the Navidad, Destination America's Monsters and Mysteries in America: Texas Terror - Lake Worth Monster, Animal Planet's Finding Bigfoot: Return to Boggy Creek and Beast of the Bayou.
Taking cryptozoology into the paranormal really hurts the science and the reputation of the field altogether.
Differing footprints, descriptions, etc. could be due to the fact that people saw different animals dueing different encounters, but because the witnesses couldn’t clearly decipher what animal they were seeing, i.e. a raccoon or whatever the Australian equivalent might be, they projected their pre-programmed belief in this yuuri onto the encounter.
I wish we could embrace science and the scientific method and end discussion of all this psychic hocus pocus.
Long live the scientific dogma that these creatures don’t exist!
Is it too late to catch up with these faeries?
I haven’t read much about Australian cryptid primates, but that’s never stopped me from commenting so here’s a couple observations:
– The presence 3, 4, and 5-toed tracks could arise from a number of different scenarios and combinations of scenarios. You could have several species of cryptid. There could be hoaxes mixed into the sample. There could also be misidentifications and oversteps mixed in as well. I don’t think finding several variations of footprints relegates the Yowie to the spirit world.
– As to “what could physically exist without leaving definitive physical evidence”?: Intelligent and secretive cryptid primates. Every place around the world where strong (as in DNA, metals analysis of hair samples, etc.) physical evidence has been gathered has been gathered recently – as in the past decade or so. So these animals (if they in fact exist) have been around since before mankind and it is only recently that scientifically relevant evidence has been gathered and documented. Australia is a large area and is fairly sparsely populated, so its not surpising that definitive physical evidence may take some time to gather and may lag discoveries in other areas. On the other hand a breakthrough could occur anywhere, so its also possible that one could occur there – there’s a lot of chance involved.
– As I mentioned above I’m not up on all that’s known about the Yowie, so its quite possible that it might not exist at all. But it seems that there are a significant number of sightings, there has been some physical evidence gathered, and they seem to be present in aboriginal lore, so it seems possible that they do exist.
shovethenos said: ‘Intelligent and secretive cryptid primates…’
I strongly doubt these ‘animals’ have the inteligence to say to themselves: ‘Hmm… I don’t want to be found. I shall cover my tracks, and hide myself at all costs!’
No, they probably just are either: elusive and appear when people aren’t looking, or aren’t real. There can’t be an in between.
I think for the Australia/Asian area there are maybe three groups of sightings. The Giganto type, and the large and small relic hominids and hominoids. There is also a theory that instead of “out of Africa” that it might be “out of Australia”. Where as a seperate primate evolution leading to man may have developed in Australia, not Africa.
Saying Australia has been fully explored is like saying Tom Cruise is a normal guy.
As far as being intelligent and secretive — we don’t know enough about these creatures to say anything for sure.
If you want a good book about Yowies, I just read; “Giants from the Dreamtime the Yowie Myth and Reality” by Rex Gilroy. I thought it was pretty good.
Well Bf exists in flesh and blood. This I am sure of. The yowie never seen one so can not answer that question. The whole shape shifting myth idea I do not agree with. Could I be wrong yes I could.
10 years ago I was invited to spend 10 days on an aboriginal reservation that I believe was in Northeastern Queensland. An Aboriginal girl named “Kathy” related several stories to me that compelled me to take the trip. Their “Yowie” is also called a “Black man”. She said she knew of a couple people who had them for pets! She clarified that comment by saying that they actually have you as a pet. When you ranch or live in their area you can befriend them by leaving food out. They will then protect you at night. I asked her quite bluntly if this was a creature or a legend and she said her Uncle had one once and she had seen it standing behind a tree when she was 8 years old. She said it just stood there motionless and waited for food. The “Black Man” hung out around the ranch for many years. She said that since few white people ever come on their land they may never have seen some of the animals they have in the area as she has never heard or seen these cryptids(?) mentioned in any books. She also said there is a stretch of beach that none of her tribe ever stay overnight on because of the big lizard and some other creatures that come out at night and are dangerous. Her distinction between living and myth was quite defined although she mentioned snipe type leprechaun people as well…but in a different context. I also spoke to a game warden who had an associate that had a run in with a Yowie at a campsite. It left footprints and what were once well anchored bushes thrown all over the campsite. Interesting stuff to be sure.
Dark-Obsessor-
Well if these animals actually exist I think it would follow that they are as intelligent or more intelligent than the other great apes, which are pretty smart. Orangutans have been known to construct and use lock picks. Gorillas can be taught sizeable sign language vocabularies. Chimps use several kinds of tools and hunt cooperatively using flushing and ambush tactics.
And although it is tough to prove, it has been alleged that Bigfoot will obliterate their tracks and avoid surfaces that can create tracks in some instances.
I think that when one takes into account that Bigfoot, Yowie, et. al. are probably at least as intelligent as the great apes and that if they exist have successfully avoided man for the most part for hundreds of years I think it is fairly safe to assume that they are pretty intelligent. Possibly second only to homo sapiens.
I’m quite sure when Australia broke off the Asia continent, that the big guy was there, but I dont know how differently he has evolved from the rest of the primates while there.
As to intelligence, well, I think he has almost the same kind of intelligence as we have, but in a different way.
From the reports I have read, they all share a common thread, hair standing up on the back of the neck of the witness, this is not a thought action, but an instinct one, from our primitive past. Judging from that response, I would venture to say, that we know there is danger present, from our own instinct, the intelligence that we as a race have put aside in ourselves, but the big guy has not. He still has all that instinct intelligence, so who’s to say who is smarter, its a matter of perspective.
If any one of us was marooned on a desert island, how much of our primative state would return to us after time? For over time, we would not need the knowledge we have compiled as of today, but we would need instinct, so we can provide ourselves with food and water.
Instinct is a powerful tool and an intelligence all its own.
Thumbs up for the brave souls willing to risk their reputations on the ‘paranormal’ aspects of BF/Yowie research. Let’s hear it for all the heretics of forbidden science.
“Casper the friendly ghostsquatch”, yeah that’s it. I think people see unusual and rare things. The real problem is with those who don’t believe them.
folks just remember, we now know that there are several other dimensions, and it is very possible that some of the “barriers” between them and us is weak at best. There have been several reports of strange people like the green children found in britain and spain, people disappearing into the ground and the such. Scientists are pretty sure that there are lifeforms there, but just not sure what. Could yowie and big foot be something walking in and out of our worlds, maybe. I do know that anything is possible. I just hope that they are actually physical creatures living within our 4 dimensions along with the rest of us. I also believe that they are exceptionally smart.
Just a couple of things – the supposed extinct great ape – gigantopithicus – once lived in Asia and very likely ended up in Australia. Also, MANY animals are shy of humans and go to great lengths to avoid us – i.e. the majority of animals residing in the Himalayan mountains! – Most of these animals are well known, though rarely seen. We also need to understand that so many animals – in particular large mammals – have really only recently discovered. The best example of this is the Giant Panda, which was thought to be a myth and catagorized with dragons and unicorns until at least the 1930’s! One more thought, if this animal is real and has a VERY limited population, couldn’t certain physical anomalies of the feet and toes be attributed to in-breeding?
Thanks to everyone for commenting.
We assumed no body would be interested in our ideas since no one in Australia is. 🙂
“Taking cryptozoology into the paranormal really hurts the science and the reputation of the field altogether”.
Thats our point, regarding “science” and secret monster ape like forms popping up everywhere, there is virtually no form of science or evidence to support flesh and blood monster primates. If you want to stick to a pure science paradigm, there is no paranormal, fair enough.
But the same yard stick says there is no evidence for monster unknown primates on several continents on earth.
The “reputation”, there is no reputation other than scorn from the majority of mainstream scientists .
And thats because there is no evidence.
“Differing footprints, descriptions, etc. could be due to the fact that people saw different animals”
What other animal species shows such variation within species?
“I wish we could embrace science and the scientific method”
Thats our point exactly. There is no science to support the existence of monster primates running around. If you stick to your own scientific method the animals do not exist. Sorry.
“Every place around the world where strong (as in DNA, metals analysis of hair samples, etc.)”
Of yowies, sasquatch, yeti? please show us the links for this evidence please.
This would be dna based we assume. And not links to unidentified bits of flesh/hair etc.
“So these animals (if they in fact exist) have been around since before mankind”
Sure, and they cannot die, leave no bodies, leave no relics, leave no habitation, leave no tools, leave no body parts, cannot be shot, cannot be captured, cannot be filmed “properly”, cannot be photographed, pop up on many continents, in the UK now, and in some of the reports have glowing red eyes.
What other monsterous animal on earth living in all these habitats are like this?
“breakthrough could occur anywhere”
Exactly what we stated has to be said by “flesh and blood” advocates.
Its an “argument” basing a strong belief on the “the missing evidence will turn up one day” theory.
And in 50 years the same argument will still be used by new advocates. And in 50 years all they will have is some dodgy plaster casts and some eye witnesses.
“As far as being intelligent and secretive — we don’t know enough about these creatures to say anything for sure.”
We know enough to say:
1) we have witnesses
2) we have some plaster casts
3) they are seen in many continents
4) they exhibit very strange abilities like glowing eyes in some cases and cannot be caught/shot/photographed/filmed etc etc .
“10 years ago I was invited to spend 10 days on an aboriginal reservation”
Some koori say:
1) the animals don’t exist
2) the animals exist
3) the animals are spirits.
What other koori beliefs are there like this for normal flesh and blood animals?
“Well if these animals actually exist I think it would follow that they are as intelligent or more intelligent than the other great apes”
And what other great ape like form appears all over the world, and is elusive as these beings/leave no evidence other than footprints and is starting to appear in the United Kingdom.
“Just a couple of things – the supposed extinct great ape – gigantopithicus”
Based on parts of a jaw that vanished in China during the second world war.
“Many animals are shy of humans and go to great lengths to avoid us”
This is the “They are really good at hiding” theory which is fairly weak as explained in our article when you take ALL of the unanswered problems we presented into consideration.
What most critics of our ideas do is cherry pick ones they like to critcise and pretend they cannot see other problems that exist.
I noticed that all the critics adroitly avoided the following comment “Why are these man-beasts turning up everywhere, in the most unlikely places – including, in recent years, the heart of the UK? In the millions of man-hours spent on the ground by recreational and professional hunters, why hasn’t one animal been shot?”.
“we will shoot one one day”… 🙂
Regarding the UK. Which idea do Flesh and blood believers think?
1) The monster apes have been really good at hiding for 2,000 years in the UK in all the forests and now they are being seen.
2) All observers are lying/grossly mistaken, including professional zoologists like Freeman about their encounters.
There is a “trap” to each conclusion… of course. 🙂
MikeW
very interesting new yowie article here. very informative.
mikew hit it on the head. remember that the scientific method that has been in use was developed by european scientists during the renaissance, and during that time no one even dreamed that there would be some of the creatures we know exist today. Each and everytime some of the stranger ones were found they all scoffed. Then, when the evolutionary theory took hold, when it began being taught in schools, it began to be taught as fact, not a theory. When this happened the scientific method for finding and identifying animals went right out the door. Now adays if an animal doesn’t fit within the tiny box laid out by the professors or “experts”, it cannot be. Even the idea of dinos began this way. In some circles it is still happening, with the dinos. So to say that we need to stick with the scientific method, it went out when men started looking for the “missing link” in the fossil record. They weren’t interested in finding the facts, whether the facts would help them or not, they just wanted the money and/or fame of finding the fossils. That is why nessie, champ, ogopogo and other cryptids have gone so long being ignored by the main stream. Professor said that these animals died out years ago, therefore they cannot exist. The main reason most people cannot accept big foot in North America is because we have always been under the notion that all the “weird” animals were in africa and australia. Even though the fossil remains of a type or rhino, elephant and giant sloth have been found in the south west where a massive volcano killed them about 2,000 years ago. So big foot survived, why is that hard to accept? Because people like what they are taught, not the facts and/or truth. Besides, what’s to say that within my life time we won’t discover how to travel between dimensions, only to discover that some of these cryptids thrive there?
I’m a flesh and blood guy. I have personal beliefs about various paranormal things but for the large bipedal type animals I am flesh and blood.
Anything else and I wont have enough covers to hide under.
The thousands of rounds of ammo I have wont touch a spirit beast. A ufo driving, shapeshifting, alien recon patroling yowie or bigfoot may be susceptible to my many bullets, but spirit realm beasties are way outta my league.
Well, Mikew, your response seems a bit hostile, but then again, I suppose several of our comments come across that way too. I, for one, don’t think anything can be ruled out just quite yet, and I applaud you for thinking “outside the box” (The box, I suppose, being the accepted convention).
I’ve posted before about the seemingly impossible, yet oddly compelling, idea that these big, hairy, wild men seen all over the world (I mean, we have reports from Scotland and Luxembourg, for crying out loud) are actually tulpa-like psychic manifestations of a deeply-seated psychological archetype within the human mind. Even within this paranormal framing we have several possible explanations. One is that they are genuinely physical (Albeit temporary) manifestations of spirit, which are either generated by the collective unconscious or perhaps at least influenced by it. Another has to do with the mind’s interaction with natural (Or artificial too, nowadays) electromagnetic fields. Laboratory work involving very powerful magnets has been able to artificially induce alien abduction-like scenarios, a strong feeling of a presence in the room, or of being watched, and the classic near-death and out-of-body experiences. Why couldn’t a Bigfoot encounter be similarly generated?
The fact that there have been footprints and such recovered points to physical manifestations, while the fact that other, seemingly real, paranormal encounters can be artificially induced suggests the latter. Again, we have no clear-cut answers, but at least we have a few further avenues to explore.
As for cryptozoology not being paranormal, well, that’s where the rest of the world lumps it, like it or not. And who can blame them? CZ, at its very heart, deals with myth and legend, claiming that they represent more than just fiction. To say that sea monsters or bigfoot or mothman are real is no different than saying that ghosts and demons and aliens are real in the minds of most people. CZ is fringe science because it deals with things that exist only on the fringe of reality, where our clear-cut sense of what is objectively real and what is fantasy disappears in a heat-haze like blurring of our collective vision. Existing as we do on that fringe, who’s to say exactly where the line can be drawn between fact and fantasy? All I can say is that it’s a very thin line to walk, and we are all likely to end up on one side or the other from time to time. 50 years from now, I think all of us will be surprised at what will be considered “real” and what “fiction.” All we can do is strive on with diligence…
The scientific method is all we have to test reality with, Shumway. Anything else is simply making things up, or going on untested assumptions. This is not to say that it cannot be used to validate things which appear to contravene the facts as we know them. What many people fail to understand about science is that everything is a theory. If I may quote Ian Simmons, from a recent article in the Fortean Times, of all places-
“In science, a theory is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behaviour of a certain natural or social phenomenon, either originating from, or supported by, experimental evidence. In this sense, a theory is a systematic and formalized expression of all previous observations made that is predictive, logical, testable, and has never been falsified despite repeated attempts.”
To deride evolution as a theory is no different than saying that gravity is “only a theory”, or electromagnetism. Both theories, although undoubtedly incomplete, are useful and accurate enough to be used to sligshot our spacecraft around planets, keep our satellites aloft, and build computers that allow you to post your comments here. Strangely, very few people target these incomplete theories for abuse or ridicule, even though in some ways we know less of the fine details and processes concerning them than we do that of evolution.
The problem with cryptozoology is that however much some may want to pigeonhole it into conventional zoology, we still get these crazy reports of large animals in populated areas disappearing without a trace, and hairy bipeds looking though windows one night while towering cloaked men in tophats take their place the next. It’s frustrating, and no one at this point can say with any certainty exactly what’s going on here. For me, anyway, that’s part of what makes it so fascinating as well.
Mike W-
Some answers to your points:
Bigfoot and other cryptid hominids are for the most part unrecognized by mainstream science. Therefore the expected outcome if you find their DNA is “unidentified primate”. It’s kind of a zen thing – how much DNA from unidentified primates do you have to find before mainstream science admits you’re finding DNA from unidentified primates?
(Your comments in brackets below.)
[[[Of yowies, sasquatch, yeti? please show us the links for this evidence please……This would be dna based we assume. And not links to unidentified bits of flesh/hair etc.]]]
This is a link to an article originally taken from The Times of London on DNA from a hair collected in Bhutan of what is allegedly a Yeti. The DNA was analyzed at Oxford and did not match human, bear, or any other known DNA.
This is a link to an article in the Manchester Evening News about DNA taken from hair samples allegedly coming from an Orang Pendek. The scientists at Cambridge and other facilities conclude that the DNA does not come from any known species of animal.
If memory serves there have been other accounts of unidentified DNA being taken from hairs found in North America, I haven’t been able to locate those stories. (If someone can find links please post them.)
The other account of very convincing scientific evidence I can remember off the top of my head came from a show on either the Discovery or History Channel here in the US. I forget the exact title of the show. It featured a segment on the Yeren, the “Bigfoot” of China. Researchers there had found hair samples and performed metal content analysis on the hairs. This kind of analysis can indicate what species a particular hair came from. The analysis indicated that it was a primate hair due to its similarity to other primate hairs, but that it did not come from any known primate species.
[[[Sure, and they cannot die, leave no bodies, leave no relics, leave no habitation, leave no tools, leave no body parts, cannot be shot, cannot be captured, cannot be filmed “properly”, cannot be photographed, pop up on many continents, in the UK now, and in some of the reports have glowing red eyes…
What other monsterous animal on earth living in all these habitats are like this?]]]
Note that gigantopithecus was around for millions upon millions of years and all the physical proof that mainstream science currently possesses amounts to some molars and jaw fragments. So it is possible for very real animals to exist for very long periods of time without mainstream science collecting much physical evidence of them.
And note that there have been a number of shootings and corpses of animals that are alleged by many to be genuine. The Minnesota Iceman. The De Loys ape. Same with pictures and video – the Patterson Gimlin film. Etc, etc, etc……
[[[And in 50 years the same argument will still be used by new advocates. And in 50 years all they will have is some dodgy plaster casts and some eye witnesses.]]]
I doubt it. In the last 10 years we already have several unidentified DNA samples. I think much stronger proof will be uncovered.
[[[1) we have witnesses]]]
We have thousands of witnesses from all walks of life, including many scientists, physicians, professionals, law enforcement and military personnel, hunters, etc.
[[[2) we have some plaster casts]]]
We have thousands of casts over 50+ years that in North America form a very pronounced Gaussian distribution – indicating it is very likely that the majority of them are genuine.
[[[3) they are seen in many continents]]]
Cryptid hominids have allegedly been seen on every continent but Antarctica.
[[[4) they exhibit very strange abilities like glowing eyes in some cases and cannot be caught/shot/photographed/filmed etc etc .]]]
Eye-shine from artificial light sources at night is very common in the animal kingdom. And they can be caught, shot, photographed, filmed, etc. – it is just very difficult. Personally, I don’t believe they should be shot, because they are likely so critically endangered that any particular animal is very important as breeding stock for the long-term survival of the species. I think attempts at capture should be discouraged due to the danger posed both to humans and the animal.
[[[And what other great ape like form appears all over the world, and is elusive as these beings/leave no evidence other than footprints and is starting to appear in the United Kingdom.]]]
I don’t think anyone is alleging that these animals are all the same species. I am skeptical of the UK sightings.
[[[What other animal species shows such variation within species?]]]
This refers to my comments about the footprints. Again, there could be multiple species, there could be misidentifications mixed in, there could be hoaxes mixed in – there could be some of all of the above.
[[[1) The monster apes have been really good at hiding for 2,000 years in the UK in all the forests and now they are being seen.
2) All observers are lying/grossly mistaken, including professional zoologists like Freeman about their encounters.]]]
As I stated above I am skeptical of the UK sightings. And there is a third possibility – the observers aren’t mistaken or lying about their observations, but are being taken in by very good hoaxers.
I can’t say anything about the UK sightings, I have never read anything concerning this matter – I can say, however that any ape-like hominid seen in the UK is more than likely either an escaped known ape or a hoax. I do want to add just one more thing though – where I live there are coyotes, if you are out walking you can occasionally see them UNLESS you have a gun or a bow in your hand – then they are not to be found. Just about any shot made on one is a long range, with a high powered rifle. One must admit that certain animals have learned to avoid humans better than others, just as some have learned to tolerate us better than others. I can sight a very good example of a secretive animal that was once thought to be a myth, and those who saw it either crazy, lying, etc…etc… The Florida Panther.
Nick Redfern covered the topic of the British Beasties here on Cryptomundo in the past.
Check out his posts:
In Search of the British Bigfoot
and
The Werewolves of Britain
“Well, Mikew, your response seems a bit hostile, but then again, I suppose several of our comments come across that way too.”
I wasnt trying to be hostile, just provacative and point out obvious weaknesses to the normal belief.
I never noticed anyone else being hostile to me. 🙂
I thought the rest of your points were excellent Mnynames.!
“The DNA was analyzed at Oxford and did not match human, bear, or any other known DNA.”
Its stated=We have never encountered DNA that we couldn’t recognize before.
“This is a link to an article in the Manchester Evening News about DNA taken from hair samples allegedly coming from an Orang Pendek.
The scientists at Cambridge and other facilities conclude that the DNA does not come from any known species of animal.”
False.The dna was examined by Dr. Todd Disotell from New York University. His conclusions was human dna-but he qualified it by saying this could have been due to contamination. Brunner is an expert on hair analysis, but he can make mistakes. He gave us some very suspicous analysis on previous samples we have sent him. I went and grabbed some panthera pardus, (leopard) hair and sent it to him as a blind
test. Result from Brunner =F.Cattus
“Note that gigantopithecus was around for millions upon millions of years and all the physical proof that mainstream science currently
possesses amounts to some molars and jaw fragments. So it is possible for very real animals to exist for very long periods of time without mainstream science collecting much physical evidence of them.”
This forgets that the majority of animals that die hundreds of thousands/millions of years are never preserved. It is not logical to extrapolate known rarity of fossils and then trying to explain why there is NO evidence of monster primate forms running around NOW on earth other than some plaster casts.
“And note that there have been a number of shootings and corpses of animals that are alleged by many to be genuine.”
Anecdotal reports are interesting, I have chased up heaps before here. They dont mean anything sadly.
“The Minnesota Iceman.”
Fake.
The showman was moving a “real” anomalous animal and showing it for money. So…do you finally get it examined to prove its real-become famous-sell it for big $$$$. No, he didnt really want to make large amounst of money, and the carcass vanished. If you can show me where any scientists examined the actual body unfrozen rather than peeking through the glass it would be great.
“The De Loys ape.”
Interesting form of small primate.Has nothing to do with monster primate reports all over the world.
“pictures”
Most appear fake/are fake/so lousy they are have no value.
“Patterson Gimlin film.”
I have communicated with Bob Gimlin before. He seems like a great guy. But…”the making of bigfoot” by Greg Long pointed out some major problems with the footage. I do not support all of Longs conclusions. But the time sequence for when it was filmed-who processed it- how did it get to the mystery film developing company-how did it get back so quick etc is dodgy.
“I doubt it. In the last 10 years we already have several unidentified DNA samples.
One.
“I think much stronger proof will be uncovered.”
The evidence for monster ape like creatures, is evidence that will appear in the future. Which is exactly what will be said in 50 years.
“We have thousands of casts over 50+ years that in North America form a very pronounced Gaussian distribution – indicating it is very likely that the majority of them are genuine.”
Dr. W. Henner Farenbach study was from a database of 550. If the study is correct-then our contention is the exactly the same. A weirdo creature that leaves marks in the environment and shares a common body structure. But, sadly, it doesn’t appear to stay on this plane long enough to be caught/shot/filmed/captured/die/get run over etc etc etc. And leaves no other form of evidence. 🙂 Witnesses+casts….. thats it.
The old “absence of evidence is.. because their is an absence of evidence” is correct.
“Cryptid hominids have allegedly been seen on every continent but Antarctica.”
Exactly..and that point to…..? 🙂 Give it time for Antartica though. 🙂
“Eye-shine from artificial light sources at night is very common in the animal kingdom.”
I never mentioned “artifical light sources”. 🙂
I am referring to glowing red eyes from ambient moon light, or in poor daylight. There are links on the net. Here is just one for example from cryptomundo.
“And they can be caught, shot, photographed, filmed, etc. – it is just very difficult.”
Yes, normal animals can. But monster like forms apes cannot.
“I don’t think anyone is alleging that these animals are all the same species. I am skeptical of the UK sightings.”
We have no evidence for species id for a start. I am sticking to the general morphology. Nothing more. You forgot to mention why you are sceptical of the UK sightings. I assume you realise that if you say they are real sightings then the problem of monster hiding ape like forms in the UK for 2,000 years is ridiculous.
But to dismiss them because of the above is fraught with problems. Multiple observers, especially by zoologist Richard Freeman make the observations , though low numbers of reports, just as valid as any sample of observers from the US.
I am also looking at a 1375 woodcut copy in my room of “The Woodhouse abduction” showing a ape like form carrying off a maiden. If it’s a real representation-then you can see more problems. If its just art/folklore then…
“This refers to my comments about the footprints. Again, there could be multiple species,”
We are talking about monster ape like forms, the problem of bringing in “multiple species” is getting flesh and blood believers in to an even worse position. Instead of having one species running around for 2,000 years and leaving no decent evidence, you now have multiple species running around and leaving nothing.
But, it gets worse. The “different species” share basically the same body structure no matter what the height. So, they should share a “functional” foot aparatus shouldn’t they?
But they don’t.
Birds species differ, but the feet share commonality in structure that are functional. If you can point to any other species on earth that looks similar in structure to another species but has such large differences in foot shape them I would be very interested in looking at it.
I have uploaded a quick video showing some weird variations from Australia+around my home mostly taken by friends of mine. Others like the large “hand print” like shape that I id as 4 toes came from Darwin Museum and the original witness said “gorilla stuck on my fence,” to Tony Healy and Paul Cropper the main researchers on unusual cryptids in Australia.
The end one I show is not right around the heel to support a monster ape like form to have left that impression on a clay based lawn near my home.
I only did a few years of paleoanthropology before I became bored, but even I realise this shape is not functional.
“there could be misidentifications mixed in, there could be hoaxes mixed in there”
Exactly my argument for possibly the majority of casts.
“As I stated above I am skeptical of the UK sightings. And there is a third possibility – the observers aren’t mistaken or lying about their observations, but are being taken in by very good hoaxers.”
1) Probably applies to areas where the reports are more common, ie US.
2) Highly improbably in the UK case I am talking about.
No one knew that Freeman and co were in the area, going out that night and how did they imitate the creatures appearance and movement?
MikeW-
[[[False.The dna was examined by Dr. Todd Disotell from New York University. His conclusions was human dna-but he qualified it by saying this could have been due to contamination. Brunner is an expert on hair analysis, but he can make mistakes. He gave us some very suspicous analysis on previous samples we have sent him. I went and grabbed some panthera pardus, (leopard) hair and sent it to him as a blind
test. Result from Brunner =F.Cattus]]]
Disotell could be mistaken as well. Chimps share what – 98% or so – of genetic material with humans, there’s a good chance something like Orang Pendek could be even closer. The descriptions of them are very human-like. So given the similarities there is the potential for error there. (Admittedly I am not an expert on DNA analysis.)
And you still have the metal content analysis of the alleged Yeren samples from China. And hopefully someone will produce some North American links for the accounts I seem to remember.
[[[This forgets that the majority of animals that die hundreds of thousands/millions of years are never preserved. It is not logical to extrapolate known rarity of fossils and then trying to explain why there is NO evidence of monster primate forms running around NOW on earth other than some plaster casts.]]]
Not exactly, in many of the environments these animals live in corpses, including bones, don’t last very long. Plus it is possible that they bury or canibalize the dead. And there is more than just casts – there are feces, vocalization recordings, hair, etc.
[[[Anecdotal reports are interesting, I have chased up heaps before here. They dont mean anything sadly.]]]
Possibly – but as sightings pile up along with other evidence, like DNA, many of the earlier sightings become more credible and relevant.
[[[Fake.
The showman was moving a “real” anomalous animal and showing it for money. So…do you finally get it examined to prove its real-become famous-sell it for big $$$$. No, he didnt really want to make large amounst of money, and the carcass vanished. If you can show me where any scientists examined the actual body unfrozen rather than peeking through the glass it would be great.]]]
Well Sanderson and Heuvelmans thought it was authentic and Heuvelmans was a trained zoologist, so there’s your scientist.
And actually parts of the Iceman were peeking “through the glass” (ice) because it was decaying, that was one of the factors that helped convince Sanderson and Heuvelmans that it was genuine.
As far as the mystery surrounding the Iceman, I think the theory that US military personnel shot it in southeast asia and smuggled it home is a fairly plausible one. There were several agencies investigating it, from Canadian Customs to the FBI, and it was obviously killed, so I can understand why there was some shadiness surrounding its origin and its eventual disappearance.
[[[Interesting form of small primate.Has nothing to do with monster primate reports all over the world.]]]
I disagree. Various descriptions portray it as 5′ or so, which is close to man-sized. And there are several reports of aggressiveness and even human fatalities. A number of cryptid primates around the world are reported to be about the same size, and people often overestimate size in stressful, dangerous situations. Something like this might be responsible for some of the different “Yowie” prints.
[[[I have communicated with Bob Gimlin before. He seems like a great guy. But…”the making of bigfoot” by Greg Long pointed out some major problems with the footage. I do not support all of Longs conclusions. But the time sequence for when it was filmed-who processed it- how did it get to the mystery film developing company-how did it get back so quick etc is dodgy.]]]
Well it depends whose analysis you find convincing. I find the recent biometric analyses to be pretty convincing, especially the anomalous muscle activity on the leg that seems to be from an injury.
[[[One.]]]
No, there’s still the metal content analysis of the Yeren sample. And the Orang Pendek sample hasn’t been conclusively disproven, in my opinion. I’m fairly certain there are others, I just haven’t found the links for them.
[[[Dr. W. Henner Farenbach study was from a database of 550. If the study is correct-then our contention is the exactly the same. A weirdo creature that leaves marks in the environment and shares a common body structure. But, sadly, it doesn’t appear to stay on this plane long enough to be caught/shot/filmed/captured/die/get run over etc etc etc. And leaves no other form of evidence. Witnesses+casts….. thats it.
The old “absence of evidence is.. because their is an absence of evidence” is correct.]]]
Well the DeLoys ape was a cryptid primate that stuck around long enough to be shot. Granted it isn’t a “Bigfoot”, but prints similar to its have shown up in other areas. And that still leaves the Iceman, which some still consider authentic.
[[[I never mentioned “artifical light sources”.
I am referring to glowing red eyes from ambient moon light, or in poor daylight. There are links on the net. Here is just one for example from cryptomundo.]]]
Strange, but not outside the realm of possibility. Certainly not evidence of the supernatural.
[[[But to dismiss them because of the above is fraught with problems. Multiple observers, especially by zoologist Richard Freeman make the observations , though low numbers of reports, just as valid as any sample of observers from the US.]]]
Well I said I was skeptical, mainly due to habitat concerns. Although Bigfoot have allegedly been seen in some very densely populated areas of the US, so maybe it isn’t such a stretch.
[[[I am also looking at a 1375 woodcut copy in my room of “The Woodhouse abduction” showing a ape like form carrying off a maiden. If it’s a real representation-then you can see more problems. If its just art/folklore then…]]]
Well there are a number of “abduction” reports from around the world, from the US, Canada, Russia, and Vietnam, so maybe that isn’t outside the realm of possibility.
Re: Footprints
Well the DeLoys ape accounts were similar to other accounts, and they seemed to get around alright on hand-like feet. I think people see something dark and apelike and that’s what they describe, I don’t think they concentrate very much on trying to analyze the anatomy, especially not something not very observable in motion like feet.
[[[1) Probably applies to areas where the reports are more common, ie US.
2) Highly improbably in the UK case I am talking about.
No one knew that Freeman and co were in the area, going out that night and how did they imitate the creatures appearance and movement?]]]
I don’t doubt there are some hoaxes and misidentifications in the data, but I think there is a core of very credible observations there.
I’m not too familiar with the UK sightings, can you provide links to the most credible accounts?
“Cryptid hominids have allegedly been seen on every continent but Antarctica.”
That’s exactly the problem. Australia has very few native placental mammals of any sort, and no primates (disputes about bat taxonomy nonwithstanding), so what’s an ape supposedly doing there?
Thanks Mike for your input.
I definitely fall on the side of believing that we are dealing with flesh and blood creatures. I believe in a ‘paranormal’ world but I don’t believe any cryptids fall into that category. Can large animals survive for long periods of time without significant evidence being discovered by mainstream science? Absolutely, we’ve seen it happen time and time again and will likely see it even more in the future. (also you could arguably state that many hairy hominids have left significant evidence… mainstream science just chooses to ignore it)
Disotell could be mistaken as well. Chimps share what – 98% or so of genetic material with humans, there’s a good chance something like Orang Pendek could be even closer.
Using that logic, then the police could be going “from the dna found at the scene either an ape handled this knife and killed this man or a human.”.. 🙂
But seriously.
He claimed to have id it down to species.
We cannot reject his conclusion because it doesn’t fit our beliefs.
If it came back with “unknown dna” then people would be going that’s evidence for unknown monster ape.
Which they do anyway. 🙂
And now your saying because it came back human, that could be evidence for unknown ape.
It’s a win win isn’t it?
With dna results it’s either
1) species id
2) contamination
3) no result
4) fraud
Disotell even suggested contamination!
Possibly – but as sightings pile up along with other evidence, like DNA
There is 1 unknown dna result+loads of sightings+plaster casts.
That’s it.
Minnesota Iceman, obviously killed, so I can understand why there was some shadiness surrounding its origin and its eventual disappearance.
No body on the table-You cannot explain why a showman after money didnt release for big $. End result. Nothing.
Something like this might be responsible for some of the different “Yowie” prints.
1) where it came from had a normal biological history of ape like/monkey like forms.
2) Australia never has had that history.
Well it depends whose analysis you find convincing. I find the recent biometric analyses to be pretty convincing
I agree, but it doesn’t explain the time line of how the film was developed/who did it and how it came back o quickly for showing.
I do not believe you could have 16mm film develop that quickly now, let alone then.
Strange, but not outside the realm of possibility. Certainly not evidence of the supernatural.
Sadly, it is.
para = beyond, so it’s beyond normal. If you could give me examples of land animals whose eyeballs can produce light then that would be great. If not, then we have the only land animal that can turn on its eye balls at night and emit light. 🙂
Its not looking good is it?
Well I said I was skeptical, mainly due to habitat concerns. Although Bigfoot have allegedly been seen in some very densely populated areas of the US, so maybe it isn’t such a stretch.
So, if the reports are valid, then you have to honestly believe a monster ape like form could have hid in the forests of the UK for 2,000 years and never be found?
Do you see any problems with that idea? 🙂
I’m not too familiar with the UK sightings, can you provide links to the most credible accounts?
The 2 main sites are down at the moment.
1 site I did find is this.
If you poke around you will find Richard Freeman.
He is a trained zoologist who reported the 8 ft tall creatures moving around him and 2 others in a forest in the uk.
The best overview is “Three men hunting monsters” by Nick Redfern.
U.T. Raptor-
The aborigines are placental mammals, and they made it to Australia. And the alleged cryptid primates have similar diets. Although how cryptid primates made it over patches of ocean is certainly a problem.
I just said that cryptid primates had been sighted on every continent but antarctica – I didn’t say I had any kind of detailed theories on their origin.
MikeW-
Low on time now, I’ll try to respond later.
MikeW-
Disotell even suggested contamination!
And depending on the nature of the contamination, he could be looking at something that is very close to human but actually isn’t and thinking it is “contamination”. The Orang Pendek accounts indicate something very close to human.
Do you have any links on the Disotell findings?
There is 1 unknown dna result+loads of sightings+plaster casts.
That’s it.
No, there is at least one unknown DNA result, maybe more. Then you have the metal content analysis indicating “unknown primate” from China. You have a number of alleged feces, scat, etc. You have vocalization recordings that have been authenticated by some experts. You have a large amount of casts, some with emough detail to show dermal ridging. Sorry – you repeatedly ignore a ton of evidence, some of it quite credible.
No body on the table-You cannot explain why a showman after money didnt release for big $. End result. Nothing.
There are several plausible scenarios. US soldier illegally kills rare ape while in southeast asia (possibly in a country he wasn’t supposed to officially be in) and then illegally smuggles it back to the US and then illegally sells it to a carnival or sideshow exhibitor. There’s a lot of liability there. The Smithsonian also called the FBI in to investigate it. So there are lots of reasons why it might have disappeared suddenly. Its possible – no, scratch that, it’s probably one of the the strongest explanations – that the government either bought it or seized it and then hushed it up.
1) where it came from had a normal biological history of ape like/monkey like forms.
2) Australia never has had that history.
Not quite. Central and South America has indigenous monkeys, but allegedly no apes. And certainly no apes that allegedly can walk upright and use tools. So DeLoys ape was quite unlike anything that’s officially supposed to be there. And again the aborigines made it there, so its possible some primates did too.
I agree, but it doesn’t explain the time line of how the film was developed/who did it and how it came back o quickly for showing.
I do not believe you could have 16mm film develop that quickly now, let alone then.
So the timeline is wrong. But if you find the biometric analyses convincing you still have footage of a cryptid primate, regardless of when it was developed.
para = beyond, so it’s beyond normal. If you could give me examples of land animals whose eyeballs can produce light then that would be great. If not, then we have the only land animal that can turn on its eye balls at night and emit light.
Its not looking good is it?
Still looks good to me. I wouldn’t rule out some very strange visual adaptations. And of course the “shining eye” sightings could be hoaxes. In fact one of the suits used in a hoax recently recounted on this sight had reflective eyes. A hoaxer could easily add a light source.
So, if the reports are valid, then you have to honestly believe a monster ape like form could have hid in the forests of the UK for 2,000 years and never be found?
Do you see any problems with that idea?
Well first of all accounts of “wildmen” are not foreign to the British Isles – there are lots of them. I think there is even a “wild man” somewhere in the Arthurian legend. So it is very possible that they have been encountered there in the past.
There are other explanations as well – a cryptid could have escaped from a research facility or a private owner.
The aborigines are placental mammals, and they made it to Australia. And the alleged cryptid primates have similar diets.
Sure, but aboriginals exist. Since yowies are only alleged to exist we have no idea what their diet is.
I just said that cryptid primates had been sighted on every continent but antarctica – I didn’t say I had any kind of detailed theories on their origin.
But that’s the point.
Its the wide variety of places the monster ape like beasties keep popping up that destroys its credibility.
If it’s just a normal primate form, give me an example of a primate found in the majority of countries.
Just one.
Even you must admit it would be more plausible for a mystery flesh and blood animal to be reported in one area/country.
What other normal animal has reports of its appearances all over the globe and yet cannot be found?
There is none.
But we will ignore that obvious hole and move on.
Disotell even suggested contamination!
And depending on the nature of the contamination, he could be looking at something that is very close to human but actually isn’t and thinking it is “contamination.”
If the flimsy reference for him is right its fairly unambigous. If you disgree with his supposed claim then why not contact him?
Do you have any links on the Disotell findings?
Yes, and they are all I can find.
(2006-02-27). Is it Real: Ape Man [TV-Series]. U.S.A.: The National Geographic Channel.
No, there is at least one unknown DNA result, maybe more.
I said one unknown in my post.
Claim of Unknown dna result = Possible Cryptid ape form.
Claim of Human dna result = Possible Cryptid ape form.
Contaminated dna result = Possible Cryptid ape form.
have the metal content analysis indicating “unknown primate” from China. You have a number of alleged feces, scat, etc.
Interesting anecdotes.
You have vocalization recordings that have been authenticated by some experts.
And dismissed by the majority.
You have a large amount of casts, some with emough detail to show dermal ridging. Sorry – you repeatedly ignore a ton of evidence, some of it quite credible.
No, you’re not reading my posts properly.
If the “evidence” is so credible then how does your belief system cope with the majority of scientists thinking its utter garbage?
I am accepting that some of the casts are real.
I am accepting that some of the witnesses are genuine.
I have interviewed heaps of witnesses and travelled thousands of miles and spent hundreds of hours in forests by myself, mostly at night.
I didn’t do all that because I thought there was no reality to the phenomena.
But I kept finding witnesses reporting things they were not supposed to if the animals were normal.
I kept finding books like 3 men chasing monsters and “the bigfoot files”+ The skinwalker ranch, etc.
I had a few experiences that did not appear to be “normal”.
And I could find no decent evidence.
And none popped up anywhere else in the world.
There are several plausible scenarios. US soldier illegally kills rare ape while in southeast asia (possibly in a country he wasn’t supposed to officially be in) and then illegally smuggles it back to the US and then illegally sells it to a carnival or sideshow exhibitor.
As interesting as your scenario is, it doesnt answer my question.
Who cares how it turned up in a side show.
The showman could have said anything, showed the body to the Smithsonian, they go crazy, big headlines, big $.
The Smithsonian also called the FBI in to investigate it.
Interesting claim, whats the source?
the government either bought it or seized it and then hushed it up.
Seriously, why would the government care about an unusual primate form? I can hear the x-fles soundtrack now. 🙂
Australia never has had that history.
Not quite.
You did suggest Yowies.
And again the aborigines made it there, so its possible some primates did too.
Sure, no decent evidence for the primates, but that doesn’t matter.
And we will ignore how the koori say:
1) it exists and is flesh and blood.
2) Its doesn’t exist.
3) It’s a spirit and not of flesh.
Funny how after 40,000 years they still cannot agree. But there must be loads of other animals in OZ like this which the koori have 3 different ideas about.
But I dont know of even one…But we will gloss over that and move on..
So the timeline is wrong.
Exactly. Which it shouldn’t be. But we will ignore it. 🙂
But if you find the biometric analyses convincing, you still have footage of a cryptid primate, regardless of when it was developed.
Sure, but if the footage is real, then we will say, great, the only decent evidence is a 16mm film.
And that is still inside our belief systems. 🙂
If not, then we have the only land animal that can turn on its eye balls at night and emit light. It’s not looking good, is it?
Still looks good to me. I wouldn’t rule out some very strange visual adaptations.
You forgot terrestial animal examples.
And of course the “shining eye” sightings could be hoaxes.
All of them, sure, why not eh? 🙂
In fact one of the suits used in a hoax recently recounted on this sight had reflective eyes. A hoaxer could easily add a light source.
I never was talking about “reflective” eyes.
Sure, then we accept sightings that fit our belief system as real.
And sightings that dont fit our ideas as hoax.
Easy.
Well first of all accounts of “wildmen” are not foreign to the British Isles – there are lots of them.
Excellent, we agree. 🙂
There are monster unknown ape-like beings living in the forests of the UK for 2,000 years that have never been caught.
There are other explanations as well – a cryptid could have escaped from a research facility or a private owner.
A monster cryptid, sure why not. 🙂
I just got one question. Does the Yowie have a pouch? 😉
They seem really lazy, so my guess would be couch rather than pouch.
mikew-
Sure, but aboriginals exist. Since yowies are only alleged to exist we have no idea what their diet is.
You are correct in that I may be speculating a little too much here. From alleged sightings and scat in the US there is more information on probable diet.
Its the wide variety of places the monster ape like beasties keep popping up that destroys its credibility.
Well, the funny thing is the evidence keeps piling up in the wide variety of places they are seen – both the circumstantial and the hard evidence. Unidentified DNA in Bhutan. Metal content analysis in China. Patterson / Gimlin film in the US.
If it’s just a normal primate form, give me an example of a primate found in the majority of countries.
Just one.
Even you must admit it would be more plausible for a mystery flesh and blood animal to be reported in one area/country.
No one’s saying they are the same species, there are a lot of differences in the various cryptids seen. From height to foot structure to color to appearance.
What other normal animal has reports of its appearances all over the globe and yet cannot be found?
There is none.
But we will ignore that obvious hole and move on.
Well there are other cryptids, for instance. Ones we have some decent evidence for – like the pictures of the “cadborosaurus” corpse. There are accounts of “water horses” from many areas of the world.
Interesting anecdotes.
The metal content analysis isn’t an “anecdote”, its a scientific test.
And dismissed by the majority.
I wasn’t aware of a “majority” even listening to and analyzing the recordings. Do you have a link for this?
If the “evidence” is so credible then how does your belief system cope with the majority of scientists thinking its utter garbage?
Cocoon-like immersion in their particular theories. Immense pressure to conform to the “consensus” until it changes. In some cases they may actually believe it is possible but lie to avoid ridicule or damage to their careers/reputations.
I had a few experiences that did not appear to be “normal”.
Well I can’t comment on your experiences, but a lot of things can appear strange when one is alone in the woods, especially at night and under low visibility conditions.
Who cares how it turned up in a side show.
The showman could have said anything, showed the body to the Smithsonian, they go crazy, big headlines, big $.
He could have made a promise to the original “owner”. The original “owner” could have been a friend or relative. There are a lot of possibilities.
Interesting claim, whats the source?
From Wikipedia.
“The Smithsonian Institution was reportedly briefly interested in the iceman, asking Dr. John Napier to investigate, then suggesting the FBI investigate, due to reports that the creature had been shot and killed. Shortly thereafter, the iceman disappeared from public display, withdrawn, Hansen said, by the California-based owner.”
Seriously, why would the government care about an unusual primate form? I can hear the x-fles soundtrack now.
Australia never has had that history.
I believe it is likely that various classified research projects exist focusing on cryptid primates. The Soviets at one point were doing research in trying to cross apes with men to create “super-soldiers”. Frequently the US did parallel research to the Soviets. There has been a number of strange circumstances surrounding Bigfoot and other cryptid sightings. In some instances helicopters and gunfire have been reported. In other instances gunfire has been mentioned in connection with a police presence. Then there are strange accounts like the one from Puerto Rico of something being held captive in the back of a van with NASA markings.
Claim of Unknown dna result = Possible Cryptid ape form.
Claim of Human dna result = Possible Cryptid ape form.
Contaminated dna result = Possible Cryptid ape form.
I didn’t say that was the decision tree – that any result supported the conclusion of cryptid ape form. I merely mentioned that the Orang Pendek is allegedly quite human-like and that might create the possibility of confusion in the DNA analysis.
But I dont know of even one…But we will gloss over that and move on..
If an animal was particularly elusive and good at avoiding contact I can see some legends and supernatural attributions growing up around it.
Exactly. Which it shouldn’t be. But we will ignore it.
No, I didn’t say we should ignore it. But this discussion is about whether cryptid primates exist, not an intense investigation of the timeline surrounding the Patterson/Gimlin film. If you find the biometric analyses of the film convincing then you believe that it probably portrays a cryptid primate, therefore you believe it is more likely than not that they exist.
Sure, but if the footage is real, then we will say, great, the only decent evidence is a 16mm film.
And that is still inside our belief systems.
If not, then we have the only land animal that can turn on its eye balls at night and emit light. It’s not looking good, is it?
If we believe that the footage is real then we have another piece of good evidence to throw on the pile with the DNA, the metals analysis, etc.
The illuminated eyes are a seperate issue. Again, these could be hoaxes. Or it could be some type of bio-lumenescence.
Excellent, we agree.
There are monster unknown ape-like beings living in the forests of the UK for 2,000 years that have never been caught.
Didn’t say that. I thinks its a possibility, although not a particularly strong one.
Well, the funny thing is the evidence keeps piling up in the wide variety of places they are seen – both the circumstantial and the hard evidence. Unidentified DNA in Bhutan.
The top of the post here and you are implying that unidentified dna is relevent to cryptid primate forms.
Further down in this post you are saying:
I didn’t say that was the decision tree – that any result supported the conclusion of cryptid ape form
If none of the dna “results” support the conclusion of a cryptid ape form why do you keep bringing it up over and over.
Metal content analysis in China.
source wikipedia.? groan
Patterson / Gimlin film in the US.
Film showed something weird, sure.
No one’s saying they are the same species, there are a lot of differences in the various cryptids seen. From height to foot structure to color to appearance.
Different unidentified species running around now?
That all share common morphology.
Okay then, stick to genus, give me 1 example of large animals that are from the same genus that cannot be caught and pop up everywhere.
And, if you are about to say how do we know they are from the same genus, then give me 1 example of of large animals that share the same basic body structure, that pop up everywhere all over the earth and cannot be caught on land.
The metal content analysis isn’t an “anecdote”, its a scientific test.
1) Metal content analysis is a scientific test.
2) The use of this term, and providing no evidence to back your claim is called an anecdote.
I wasn’t aware of a “majority” even listening to and analyzing the recordings. Do you have a link for this?
So you do have a sense of humour. 🙂
You’re not reading the posts in full.
I was talking, obviously, about all the evidence in full.
And, if you want to be pedantic, which recordings are you exactly referring to?
The High Sierra ones, which.
Cocoon-like immersion in their particular theories.
Reminds me of someone. 🙂
I had a few experiences that did not appear to be “normal”.
Well I can’t comment on your experiences, but a lot of things can appear strange when one is alone in the woods, especially at night and under low visibility conditions.
You just did comment, indirectly, on my experience!
If someone is not used to the dark, being by themselves and does most of their “research” behind the desk I am sure your summmary is correct. 🙂
What I experienced had nothing to do with visibility.
Interesting how you couldn’t actually even be bothered to ask what my experiences were.
Which leads me into the next question.
Whats your background in any aspect of cryptozoology.
From Wikipedia The Smithsonian Institution
Thats the same lousy source I used with trepidation in another post. 🙂
The actual quote says “The Smithsonian Institution was reportedly briefed”
Thats it.
What scientists would be interested if you told them the proof for your idea is “reportedly briefed” quoted, in Wikipedia?
Seriously, you must admit it is pretty lame.
I believe it is likely that various classified research projects exist focusing on cryptid primates. The Soviets at one point were doing research in trying to cross apes with men to create “super-soldiers”. Frequently the US did parallel research to the Soviets. There has been a number of strange circumstances surrounding Bigfoot and other cryptid sightings. In some instances helicopters and gunfire have been reported. In other instances gunfire has been mentioned in connection with a police presence. Then there are strange accounts like the one from Puerto Rico of something being held captive in the back of a van with NASA markings.
errr, what can I say? wow!
I didn’t say that was the decision tree
No, you just implied that unidentified dna = cryptid primate.
You did it again at the top of this post as well.
I merely mentioned that the Orang Pendek is allegedly quite human-like and that might create the possibility of confusion in the DNA analysis.
But the source was wikipedia, which stinks. That’s all I can find.
Lets pretend its true.
It doesn’t matter that orang pendak looks similar to us.
We share common dna with many animals and are similar to primates.
The “confusion” appears to be your understanding of dna.
If the results were true, and I doubt it, they were human.
Have you ever seen a dna result from a sample test of anything?
Thats why I made that joke about the police finding dna and going “the killer could have been a human or a chimp”.
Which you missed. 🙂
I can see some legends and supernatural attributions growing up around it.
Interesting use of the word “attributions”.
Witnesses report something really odd.
They might actually be just reporting what they have seen.
In all the people you have interviewed are you trying to tell me that none have reported something really weird.
No, I didn’t say we should ignore it. But this discussion is about whether cryptid primates exist, not an intense investigation of the timeline surrounding the Patterson/Gimlin film.
It was never intense, just about 5 lines.
If you find the biometric analyses of the film convincing then you believe that it probably portrays a cryptid primate, therefore you believe it is more likely than not that they exist.
Did you actually read the article posted by Fortean times, or our introduction?
Didn’t say that. I think it’s a possibility, although not a particularly strong one.
Seriously, after the apemen/human hybrid/NASA vans etc, I think the UK bigfoot is fairly tame for your beliefs, don’t you? 🙂
If none of the dna “results” support the conclusion of a cryptid ape form why do you keep bringing it up over and over.
I didn’t say that, I said that all three of the decision tree variables didn’t always result in the likelihood of a crypid primate. But I said that in the case of Orang Pendek, which in some cases has been described as very human-like, an additional variable could lead to that likelihood.
source wikipedia.? groan
Funny, you cited it elsewhere in the thread. But the metal content analysis on the alleged Chinese Yeren hair sample was documented on a program on the Discovery or History Channel.
Film showed something weird, sure.
Your earlier statement was stronger. I forget the exact words but you indicated you thought the film was authentic.
Different unidentified species running around now?
That all share common morphology.
Okay then, stick to genus, give me 1 example of large animals that are from the same genus that cannot be caught and pop up everywhere.
And, if you are about to say how do we know they are from the same genus, then give me 1 example of of large animals that share the same basic body structure, that pop up everywhere all over the earth and cannot be caught on land.
There aren’t. Perhaps cryptid primates are unique. But the evidence, both circumstantial and hard evidence, is accumulating nonetheless.
1) Metal content analysis is a scientific test.
2) The use of this term, and providing no evidence to back your claim is called an anecdote.
No it isn’t. I told you the source, I’m not going to buy the tape for you. The metal content analysis was documented on a show that examined the Yeren that aired on either the Discovery or History Channel here in the US.
So you do have a sense of humour.
You’re not reading the posts in full.
I was talking, obviously, about all the evidence in full.
And, if you want to be pedantic, which recordings are you exactly referring to?
The High Sierra ones, which.
From the context it seemed like you were referring to the reocrdings. The Sierra recordings seem to be the oldest, most extensive, and most examined, so I was mainly referring to them.
You just did comment, indirectly, on my experience!
If someone is not used to the dark, being by themselves and does most of their “research” behind the desk I am sure your summmary is correct.
I commented on seemingly strange occurrences in the woods in general. Experience does decrease the likelihood of perceiving something as strange, but not altogether.
What scientists would be interested if you told them the proof for your idea is “reportedly briefed” quoted, in Wikipedia?
Seriously, you must admit it is pretty lame.
Yes, but your explanations are similarly speculative and “lame”. Sideshow people and hoaxers have all kinds of scams, from fake mermaids to furry trout to jackalopes. Why did this one suddenly disappear while all of the other hoaxes stay around.
That’s what skeptics don’t want to acknowledge – their explanations have to be more convincing than the cryptozoological explanations.
But the source was wikipedia, which stinks. That’s all I can find.
Lets pretend its true.
It doesn’t matter that orang pendak looks similar to us.
We share common dna with many animals and are similar to primates.
The “confusion” appears to be your understanding of dna.
If the results were true, and I doubt it, they were human.
Have you ever seen a dna result from a sample test of anything?
Thats why I made that joke about the police finding dna and going “the killer could have been a human or a chimp”.
Which you missed.
Wikipedia was for the most part quoting other sources. And I was referring to the general accounts of the Orang Pendek, and things like the sketch in National Geographic.
And I noticed the “joke”, just didn’t think it was too funny.
But if a cryptid is closer to humans than chimps that would seem to indicate it has even more genetic material in common with humans. Hence the possibility for confusion. (And I have stated repeatedly that I am no expert on DNA analysis.)
Interesting use of the word “attributions”.
Witnesses report something really odd.
They might actually be just reporting what they have seen.
In all the people you have interviewed are you trying to tell me that none have reported something really weird.
I have never interviewed anyone. But there’s a difference between attributing something that is “weird” to extraordinary or previously unheard-of natural abilities and supernatural powers.
Seriously, after the apemen/human hybrid/NASA vans etc, I think the UK bigfoot is fairly tame for your beliefs, don’t you?
There is what is “tame” and what is plausible. The UK is pretty densely populated, so its pretty amazing that something could remain in hiding for that long. I’m not ruling it out, however. The various governments, especially the US government, have been documented to be involved in some very strange and unusual research, so I don’t see some suspicions about them is that farfetched. There are a limited number of entities that can employ nighttime helicopter flights and gunfire in conjunction with Bigfoot sightings. What alternatives are there besides military or government involvement? Private contractors employed by a wealthy eccentric?
I said that all three of the decision tree variables didn’t always result in the likelihood of a crypid
The reason you keep bringing it up is because the words “didn’t always result” mean in your brain that it could be evidence for a cryptid primate.
If it didn’t, you would not keep bringing it up over and over and over.
Now to the chase.
I cannot find any REAL reference to any unidentified dna result from Orang Pendak.
The wikipedia reference quotes a tv show.
Thats all.
End of story.
Funny, you cited it elsewhere in the thread.
Funny, you didn’t read my last post pointing out what I weak reference I was using. 🙂
That’s all I could find.
But the metal content analysis on the alleged Chinese Yeren hair sample was documented on a program on the Discovery or History Channel.
That’s evidence is it? That quote above?
And you are baffled why scientists think these fields are a joke.
And you think its because THEY are narrow minded. LOL
Your earlier statement was stronger. I forget the exact words but you indicated you thought the film was authentic.
God, give me strength. 🙂 Read what we actually wrote for Fortean times.
There aren’t. Perhaps cryptid primates are unique. But the evidence, both circumstantial and hard evidence, is accumulating nonetheless.
In your world it is. The rest of the world, sorry.
So far you have quoted these killer bits of “evidence”.
1) A show on Foxtell
2) A wikipedia entry
3) A show on discovery or History channel.
4) an unidentified dna result.
No it isn’t. I told you the source, I’m not going to buy the tape for you.
This has got to be a joke of some sort.
Please read your own actual posts.
You actually said Then you have the metal content analysis indicating “unknown primate” from China.
You dont read my posts, you dont read your own.
The metal content analysis was documented on a show that examined the Yeren that aired on either the Discovery or History.
A tv show quoted is evidence.?
I commented on seemingly strange occurrences in the woods in general.
Seriously..How would you know? I never saw anything. If you had been honestly discussing this you would have asked. I asked you what your background was, and you didnt reply. That means you have never gone and looked for anything cryptid. Ever.
You then admitted never interviewing anyone, and then had the hide to extrapolate your non experience, with how people report things. And you did that without blushing. 🙂 You’re a desk researcher who doesn’t appear to have read much about anything.
Yes, but your explanations are similarly speculative and “lame”.
But you don’t even know what our explanations are since you have obviously never read what we wrote.
Our speculations are based on doing the hard yards in the field, reading books on science, dealing with scientists, interviewing witnesses. None of which you appear to have done ever.
If it cannot be explained/proved scientifically the we must move on to the next step. I know you are confused, but read on.
The conclusions, which you are obviously incapable of reading or of understanding are.
Due the commonality of the primate like forms we are dealing with 1 type of phenomena.
This has been seen on most continents of the world.
Many indigenous people report the creatures as being real/not real/spiritual beings. Because so many witnesses have seen these things we realise that they are “real” in one sense. But, because, after 2,ooo years of civilisation, we still have no evidence, then they cannot be normal
flesh and blood animals. The fact that they appear on so many continents negates them being normal animals.
This is confirmed when you examine reports of bizarre movement/eye shine/the dread feeling/indigenous reports/silent ovement/association with other paranormal phenomena.
Good example is the Skinwalker ranch/Ute beliefs about skinwalkers.
The “killer” counter arguments/evidence presented by you to counter our “work”
Drum roll.
1) A show on Foxtell
2) A wikipedia entry
3) A show on discovery or History channel.
4) an unidentified dna result.
Sideshow people and hoaxers have all kinds of scams, from fake mermaids to furry trout to jackalopes. Why did this one suddenly disappear while all of the other hoaxes stay around.
I know of a mermaid that vanished from a side show, using your own logic, the mermaid could be real. 🙂
Logic would say.
1) Not all side show toys “stay around”.
2) The rotting toy was fake and not worth any more money.
That’s what skeptics don’t want to acknowledge – their explanations have to be more convincing than the cryptozoological explanations.
And in general, they are.
And I noticed the “joke”, just didn’t think it was too funny.
It was pointing out the absurdity of scientists “confusing” primate dna from human. But you missed that obvious point. 🙂 Again.
Hence the possibility for confusion.
The “confusion” is you not understanding the dna differences between primates and humans. If there is none, why don’t the scientists know that? And if there is a difference, thats what I am talking about.
I have never interviewed anyone.
🙂
But there’s a difference between attributing something that is “weird” to extraordinary or previously unheard-of natural abilities and supernatural powers.
Gee, you were quoting x file science fiction about Russian/ape hybrid crosses in the last post with NASA vans and beasts locked inside.
Now you’re back to “man of science” 🙂
What alternatives are there besides military or government involvement?
Here is a few. 🙂
1) well read researchers.
2) scientifically literate researchers.
3) Researchers who actually go looking for answers and not relying on the tv and computer.
4) Researchers who know the difference between a quote from an unamed tv show/a quote from the web and real evidence.
5) Reseachers who know the difference between x files fiction, ie the ape human hybrids/nasa vans and real cryptid results.
I am sorry but I cannot go on with this absurdity. Its really difficult to chat with you because you don’t read my posts properly, don’t read your own posts, play silly games with semantics when cornered and don’t appear to know anything about cryptid phenomena/or science in general.
It was fun. 🙂
Mike
mikew-
The reason you keep bringing it up is because the words “didn’t always result” mean in your brain that it could be evidence for a cryptid primate.
If it didn’t, you would not keep bringing it up over and over and over.
Now to the chase.
I cannot find any REAL reference to any unidentified dna result from Orang Pendak.
You seem to be the confused one here. In comment 20 I linked a newspaper article stating that the laboratory at Cambridge had performed a DNA analysis on hair allegedly from an Orang Pendek and had stated that the sample was not from any known animal. There’s your REAL reference.
That’s evidence is it? That quote above? And you are baffled why scientists think these fields are a joke. And you think its because THEY are narrow minded. LOL
The metal content analysis reported in the show was a SCIENTIFIC TEST performed at a CHINESE UNIVERSITY. You or anyone else can ignore it, but it is hard evidence. I don’t know why it was never reported anywhere else, its one of those things that fell through the cracks. (Or was intentionally ignored/supressed.)
In your world it is. The rest of the world, sorry.
No, the evidence – both circumstantial and physical – IS accumulating. Whether people choose to live in the real world and recognize this is another matter.
A tv show quoted is evidence.?
No, a TV show reporting on a SCIENTIFIC TEST performed by a CHINESE UNIVERSITY is evidence.
Seriously..How would you know? I never saw anything. If you had been honestly discussing this you would have asked. I asked you what your background was, and you didnt reply. That means you have never gone and looked for anything cryptid. Ever.
You then admitted never interviewing anyone, and then had the hide to extrapolate your non experience, with how people report things. And you did that without blushing. You’re a desk researcher who doesn’t appear to have read much about anything.
I choose to retain my privacy and anonymity for the most part. I’m no Great White Hunter, but I’ve been in the woods before.
As far as field research goes, that requires time, money, and opportunity and I haven’t had those in the correct combination as of yet. I have other priorities as well. But that doesn’t preclude me from reading about cryptozoology and having an opinion.
Many indigenous people report the creatures as being real/not real/spiritual beings. Because so many witnesses have seen these things we realise that they are “real” in one sense. But, because, after 2,ooo years of civilisation, we still have no evidence, then they cannot be normal
flesh and blood animals. The fact that they appear on so many continents negates them being normal animals.
But we do have evidence, some of which you admit is authentic. So you admit that we have some evidence and then say we have no evidence. And then you say that I’m the one that’s “confused”.
And I suspect that there has been numerous pieces of evidence that was gathered over those 2000 years of civilization, but was lost due to the limitations of the period.
I know of a mermaid that vanished from a side show, using your own logic, the mermaid could be real.
Logic would say.
1) Not all side show toys “stay around”.
2) The rotting toy was fake and not worth any more money.
Hmmm – a credentialed zoologist examined it and said it was likely to be real and the Smithsonian was calling for the FBI to investigate the violent way in which the animal seemed to have died and it suddenly disappears. Yeah, I guess you could say that it was a money thing, but I don’t think that’s as plausible as some of the other explanations.
And in general, they are.
Sometimes they are, often they are not.
It was pointing out the absurdity of scientists “confusing” primate dna from human. But you missed that obvious point. Again.
Well if a cryptid has genetic material in common which is much closer to humans than even chimpanzees this could be a real concern. (But again I admit I’m not an expert on DNA analysis and could be wrong.) And the lab at Cambridge said it did not match any known animal.
I didn’t miss the point, you did. And the joke still wasn’t very funny.
Gee, you were quoting x file science fiction about Russian/ape hybrid crosses in the last post with NASA vans and beasts locked inside.
Now you’re back to “man of science”
Gee – the story of the Soviet experiments with hybridization have been reported here at Cryptomundo.
So I’ve been a man of science and reason rather than science fiction all along.
Here is a few.
1) well read researchers.
2) scientifically literate researchers.
3) Researchers who actually go looking for answers and not relying on the tv and computer.
4) Researchers who know the difference between a quote from an unamed tv show/a quote from the web and real evidence.
5) Reseachers who know the difference between x files fiction, ie the ape human hybrids/nasa vans and real cryptid results.
And all these researchers can arrange for armed, free-fire nighttime helicopter missions in the United States? That was my question – what entity could be responsible for the helicopter flights and gunfire connected with at least one set of Bigfoot sightings in the US. And there’s basically only one answer – the military or government.
I am sorry but I cannot go on with this absurdity. Its really difficult to chat with you because you don’t read my posts properly, don’t read your own posts, play silly games with semantics when cornered and don’t appear to know anything about cryptid phenomena/or science in general.
No Mike, you’re the one with the reading comprehension problem and the one who doesn’t bother to pay attention to the facts. Two of the big things you got wrong:
– The metal content analysis of the alleged Yeren hair sample was an actual scientific test conducted by a Chinese university. It was reported in a Discovery or History Channel show.
– The Soviets actually did conduct man/ape hybridization research. The Moscow Times discovered documents to prove this, see the above link in this post.
The insulting and belligerent tone doesn’t help your arguments.